Omer (00:11.840)
Welcome to another episode of the SaaS Podcast.
I'm your host, Omer Khan and this is the show where I interview proven founders and industry experts who share their stories, strategies and insights to help you build, launch and grow your SaaS business.
This Week's guest is a revenue growth specialist focused on getting to that first dollar of revenue and beyond.
He helps startups and growth companies to efficiently get a lot of new customers by building a scalable outbound sales system.
In this episode we talk about how you can build your own scalable outbound sales system without adding another body or salesperson to your team.
We'll talk about some critical elements you need to have in place before you can start building that scalable system, whether it's an outbound or even inbound system.
And we deep dive into how you can leverage LinkedIn to start prospecting with B2B customers at scale.
We'll talk about what a good system looks like, how you can automate it, what tools you can use for prospecting, and how you can do all of this efficiently and so it doesn't take up all your time.
Today's guest is a partner and VP of Business development at Tall Wave, an Arizona based business, business and design and innovation agency focused on helping companies build great products and take them to market successfully.
My guest is a revenue growth specialist who's focused on getting to that first dollar of revenue and beyond.
He helps startups and growth companies to develop their business model, their go to market launch plans, and then structure their company to reach a lot of customers very efficiently, whether they have 100 sales reps or none at all.
And for 12 years prior to Tar Wave, my guest served as an operator in three venture backed startups, all having exits between $77 million and $2 billion.
So today I'd like to welcome Jared Bailey to the show.
Jared, welcome.
Jerrod Bailey (02:22.600)
Hi.
Thank you.
Omer (02:23.880)
Now I always like to start by asking my guests what drives and motivates them to do what.
Is there maybe a favorite quote that you have that maybe represents just how, what sort of drives you?
Jerrod Bailey (02:37.220)
Sure, sure.
Good question.
I guess my favorite quote, I think that drives me is there's a Zig Ziglar quote.
Confidence is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you.
And that really kind of sums up a lot of my career working in venture backed startups for so long and one in particular, very early stage.
It really takes a lot of chutzpah and insanity and you have to tilt a lot of windmills when you're in the startup world, unless you do that, you're really never going to find success.
So that drives me this idea of, hey, we're about to do something that's bigger than we're probably capable of and there's really big competition in the market and other folks who've seemingly figured things out, how are we ever going to do it and still make payroll along the way?
And sometimes you're not 100% successful making payroll, which I've been through that.
But inevitably it's really having the confidence to go out and realize that you can solve really complicated problems and it doesn't take an army to do that.
In fact, it's a handful of people usually that are part of doing really big things.
What drives me.
And even now, I think one of the main reasons that I came into Toll Wave rather than jumping into my fourth startup as a co founder was I have been through all the really hard things that startups have been through.
You know, trying to make your first dollar of revenue and then trying to get to 1 and then 10 and then 100 million and, and it's, it was really hard at the time, all three times going through it.
And I really wanted to come some, somewhere to try to figure out how could we create systems around that, how could I, if, if I was going to do it all over again, how would I do it?
Could I make a system out of it that let me do something that frankly took me three years, Could I do that in six months?
And so, you know, it's all about really kind of going out, getting in the rowboat and going after Moby Dick.
But you know, if you can carry a bigger harpoon with you, then that's, that's, that's great.
So I'm, that's kind of, my mission was to sort of come here and figure out how to build systems to do that.
Omer (04:45.780)
Have you seen that new Moby Dick movie by the way?
Jerrod Bailey (04:48.180)
I have.
It's fantastic.
Omer (04:49.810)
Is it really, what's it called?
Is it in the heart of the, the sea?
Is that what it's.
Jerrod Bailey (04:53.770)
Heart of the Sea, Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
With the Australian guy.
Omer (04:58.290)
Yeah.
Jerrod Bailey (04:58.730)
Tall, good looking guy that I get compared to by my wife all the time.
Omer (05:02.210)
Oh, well, kidding.
That's not a bad comparison.
Jerrod Bailey (05:05.970)
I wish.
Omer (05:07.890)
Cool.
Okay, now we're going to talk, we're going to talk about building a scalable outbound sales system today and how to do that efficiently.
But before we get into that, can you tell the folks a little bit more about Tollwave what is it that you guys do and how do you help other companies to grow and be successful?
Jerrod Bailey (05:29.880)
Sure.
Well, so Tollwave is.
We're relatively unique.
We're in sort of an emerging class of companies.
You'll hear like startup Foundry or some other things.
Venture, what do they call them?
Venture design firm.
We call ourselves an innovation design firm.
But essentially what we do is we come alongside typically entrepreneurs or in larger companies, the intrapreneur type that has a vision for disruption in their marketplace through technology, whether it's an app or software.
And then we come in and we really wrap specific skill sets around.
Usually that entrepreneur is existing team to not just develop a product into something great, but then to wrap the trappings of a business around that product being acquisition, sales and marketing systems and then really ultimately branding those companies for entry into market and then finally taking them into market.
So we're more horizontally focused, whereas branding agencies and design firms and digital agencies, they're kind of vertically focused.
We feel that in the earliest stage of venture, whether you're PayPal or you're a small startup, you really have to pull a lot of those levers all at the same time.
So we have a services group that does that type of work all around the world for many, many companies.
About half of our work is with early stage companies up to series C. The other half of our work tends to be with larger companies solving similar problems but doing it at a larger scale.
And then also about a year ago, so we're about six years old, about a year ago, we launched our first venture fund.
So we do have a separate but connected business which is in the venture capital space.
We did start to see over these last six years some great exits from our clients.
Wished we had some equity in those clients.
And so we built a fund to give us the ability to take equity positions and you know, maybe 10 companies a year.
So you'll also see tall wave capital out there making investments from a seed stage in early stage tech startups.
Omer (07:36.960)
Okay, so for, so the, the capital side of it is kind of more like more traditional sort of venture backed type model.
And the services side is more about complementing the skill sets that founders may have and just helping them accelerate growth by, by fitting the, the, maybe the gaps that they have in, in their own skill sets.
Jerrod Bailey (08:01.290)
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
That's right.
I mean our capital side is just think of it as just a kind of a standard venture capital model where it just, it wants to make 10 investments a year and it wants them all to have unicorn like exits.
So it's always hunting of 500 deals, it might do 10, but you know, they're always looking for really the best kind of seed stage companies to jump into from a capital perspective.
But that's essentially where their value stops.
On the services side, we're really more aligned with operations and coming alongside and executing a go to market.
Omer (08:33.830)
Okay, cool.
So let's talk about building a scalable outbound sales system.
You know, hopefully we're going to get into a lot of tactical stuff here and talk about the tools and tactics that you can apply to sort of implement this yourself.
Can you tell the audience what exactly is a scalable outbound sales system?
Why should every startup care about that?
Jerrod Bailey (09:05.100)
Sure.
Well, you know, I, I tell our portfolio and our clients the same thing that you know, you're, you really want to approach revenue like, you know, the, the line manager at a Toyota plant approaches his production line.
You, you want to build systems and you know, as I've been told, and I beat the mantra that a system beats individual heroic efforts every day, all day long.
And so when you look at revenue production like you look at a manufacturing system, you start to look at it in terms of this assembly line of revenue and you are intentional about where you build the systems, where you build predictability and repeatability.
And then once you have that, where you automate and outsource and do all sorts of things to make it go faster and basically increase the throughput of that system.
So for startups, what they really need to look at from a foundational level is what's the entirety of the system look like?
High level.
And then you start to get into the zero in on the 20 foot level of each of those pieces.
But the first piece of the system really starts with your product.
If you have a product that cannot activate, engage and retain users, then putting a lot of money into a scalable outbound system or inbound or whatever it is that you're doing to acquire leads, that effort is really, really wasted because all you're doing is just, you're replacing users or dollars with, you know, that are going out of your, out of your machine with new ones.
So you want to really establish a firm foundation and that starts with your product.
And your product has to really fundamentally drive through three metrics.
It's got to drive activation.
So if 100 users come to my website and only one downloads my product, maybe I have an activation problem.
It's got to engage.
So if 100 users are using my product, they download it and they activate today, but only one of them uses it this month.
I probably have an engagement problem.
And then if I have 100 users using my product this month, but all 100 leave next month, I have a retention problem.
And so for a lot of companies that are in the software space that are going to be seeking venture capital, they try to build all these big numbers with acquisition, but they forget they have to have the core established first.
So, you know, getting into like your product and your viral loops and your automation and how you bring users back into the product, that's really core.
We're not going to talk about that today, but that's sort of like problem number one to solve.
Omer (11:43.550)
You kind of talked about people talking about acquisition numbers.
Is it, is it fair to say, if I've understood this correctly, if I was telling you, okay, I have a startup and I have, I don't know, 50,000, 50,000 registered users.
Right?
And that's, that maybe sounds good, right?
That sounds like, okay, I haven't been in market that long.
I launched recently, I've got a sizable user base, so I must be doing okay.
But if we dug into that and said, okay, well, actually of the, the hundred people that come to my website, only one is converting.
So maybe I have an activation problem because I've had to drive a crapload of traffic to get to those 50,000 people.
And maybe I'm just not doing a very good job converting them.
And Maybe I have 50,000 registered people, but none of them use the product.
And maybe I do have a churn problem as well and people aren't sticking around, but I'm not talking about that.
So is that really what you mean by focusing on the wrong metrics?
Jerrod Bailey (12:48.360)
That is, and you'll see, these companies will go around to venture capital and say, Look, I have 50,000 registered users.
A great example.
And then the very first thing that a venture capitalist does in due diligence to say, okay, show me your metrics, and then they find out that nobody's using the product.
And so, you know, it's, it's no, it's no point going and using a fluffed up metric to go raise capital, for example, because due diligence will point that out.
What you want to be doing is spending your time trying to solve that metric, try to get some of those 50,000 to actually engage with that, the product.
And that ends up being a product decision or user experience decision and, or feature decision.
Right.
You haven't even really got to like
Omer (13:24.530)
growth tactics yet when you talk about Measuring activation, engagement and retention.
Do you drive towards having one main metric for each of those three areas or that doesn't really matter.
It's more about being able to tell the story of what's going on in there.
So when we talked about activation, is there a particular metric that you look at or is it just the overall performance on how activation is doing?
Jerrod Bailey (13:52.860)
Well, inside activation, right?
So you have this like the big activation number, and you're always looking at it saying, are we moving that number, you know, up and to the right, or are we maintaining the right percentage?
Right, but inside of that activation, activation percentage are a lot of other little conversion percentages that contribute to that.
And those conversion percentages can vary based on cohort, right?
So you bring a certain type of user in, that type of user, user may not stick around very long.
You know that based on where you got them or the message you used to bring them in.
Whereas other users, you may bring them in as a cohort, and they brought very, very few users in.
But all of them activated.
They all achieved the activation goal, which was, you know, download the app, create the, your login, and then execute your first trade or whatever that is that you consider activated.
And then you find out that those users in that cohort activate really well.
So your activation percentage as a whole, whole is X.
But inside of that you get clues as far as where product market fit really is and where you should continue or maybe change your direction of your strategy.
So, yeah, you do want to keep track of the large number in activation.
It's the percentage of users that download the app to how many actually activate.
For example, with engagement, it might be daily active users.
So what percentage of my user base is actually using it every day?
Could be weekly active, could be monthly active users.
It depends on your business and really the space that you're in, which one you want to track the most.
You may track all three anyway.
And then, you know, retention, you know, that's, that's, that's the easy one.
It's how many of my users did I.
Well, sometimes it's not that easy to measure, but it's how many of my users actually left never be seen again month over month.
But yeah, there, there are metrics inside of those that are metrics that you'll use to diagnose how to improve that, that percentage.
Omer (15:37.060)
Okay, cool.
So, so the takeaway with this is before you even think about anything else and doing an outbound sales system or even inbound or anything, where you're going to start to scale make sure that number one, you know what those three, how those three main areas are performing.
And secondly, make sure that you're actually, you're performing to at least a, a benchmark number or acceptable number that that makes sense for your business and industry.
Jerrod Bailey (16:13.680)
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And, and, but I mean the rub here is sometimes you don't know how you're performing because you have to still get your first user or users through the system.
So you do have to have the ability to acquire users at enough volume that you can start to manipulate and even know those metrics, those core metrics, right from activation to retention.
And so you can't just build it and then hope that you've got the right metrics.
You actually have to start bringing people through either a sales pipeline or onto your website and converting or downloading that sort of thing.
So you do have to have some capacity to attract users.
And that's what we're going to talk about today is a tactic that even an early stage company can use to start to, you know, bring in their first, first potential revenue leads, but then use that to, you know, to zero in on those metrics.
But with that said, even very large companies can use the same tactics just to simply do the mechanics of selling at scale.
Omer (17:13.860)
Okay, great.
So that's kind of the product part of the, the framework that you're sort of leading us through.
So what's next?
Jerrod Bailey (17:23.630)
So immediately adjacent to the product, which in this case we will call either our SaaS product or our app, immediately adjacent is the marketing site and sort of the marketing infrastructure that creates conversions.
Right.
So it's my website, it's whatever conversions I've got conversion funnels on that website or through my other means.
It's my calls to action, it's my pricing, it's my nurturing system that I have wrapped around my system in case users abandoned before they activate.
It's my tool stack, like my CRM, those sorts of things.
So this whole idea of this family of conversion and how you're handling demand that sort of hits your website or hits your sales team and then processing it through so that's the next place that you sort of have to figure out, figure things out before you can really go do things at scale.
And so what I mean by that is we just came off of something just last week we spent four weeks driving about 30,000 users to a new SaaS based consumer SaaS based web product that's going to be launching in the fall.
And we did it just to one experiment with some acquisition channels, but two, we needed to get the conversion funnels down.
And so you look at your conversion funnel and from the moment somebody hits your website, where do they click on?
Do they follow your call to action?
Are you scaring them with your call to action?
Are you, you know, what are they showing interest in the website?
How much fall off do you have?
You know, from the time they hit the first website until eventually they get into the place where you're activating them.
All those conversion funnels can be done a hundred different ways, and usually they're always done wrong right out of the gates, but you can't fix them until you have some users flowing through, through it.
So, but we want to solve that.
We want to figure out a conversion funnel that works, at least at a baseline level before we go out and, you know, try to bring 100,000 people to the website and, you know, just make, make that mistake more egregious by trying to scale too early.
So it's this conversion area that we want to focus on.
And also it's not just what's on the website.
It's.
It's the nurturing and the automation software that you pick on the back end.
It's how you build those campaigns.
If a user gives you their email address for this piece of content, how do you nurture that user from that point forward back into your conversion funnel and ultimately to buy your product?
So that's this whole realm of conversion that you have to worry about.
Omer (19:49.680)
Okay, great.
And then the final piece of this framework is.
Jerrod Bailey (19:57.120)
Yeah, so now it's how do you get people there?
How do you get people into your conversion funnel?
Right.
And that's your acquisition phase.
Right.
So that's the, that's the tactics of bringing people to the website.
And that can be both inbound and outbound.
We're going to talk about outbound tactics today.
The reason, I think the reason we talk about outbound is one, we tend to focus on outbound first with new products, because what outbound lets you do is it lets you go out and sort of fish with spears rather than fish with nets.
So you can spend less resources going after really more who you want to sell to and not necessarily the unwashed masses.
And then filtering out from there.
Outbound lets you execute experiments very quickly.
So I can conceive of a campaign today.
I can have that campaign running in a week, and then I can have data from that campaign the week after that.
So I can learn really, really quickly and be able to make decisions.
And so There's a couple of reasons why you do outbound.
Inbound is really, really critical for a company, especially long term.
But a lot of inbound tactics take six to 12 months just to really start bearing fruit, if not longer.
They also take a lot of resources as far as building content, distributing it and building the systems around it and things like SEO.
You know, you're constantly competing for certain keywords.
You're not even sure those are the keywords that you should be competing.
So there's just a lot that goes into inbound that, that makes it hard to drive sort of immediate effect when you're, when you're early stage into the market.
So acquisition is both inbound and outbound.
We'll talk about some outbound tactics today.
Omer (21:35.250)
Yeah, I think for, for some people, maybe even myself, the inbound marketing approach always seems much more appealing.
Right, because it's like, oh, great, so I can do this stuff and not have to talk to people and they'll just come and buy my product.
I don't have to try and sell anybody.
But hopefully, I think what we're going to try and cover with the rest of this conversation is also showing people that the outbound part of it doesn't have to be that scary either.
And actually it can.
When you and I had sort of spoken about this earlier, you'd made a really good point and said, you know this, the whole outbound process can also be very operationalized and automated and done in a way which doesn't have to feel intimidating.
And it can actually be something that somebody who comes from maybe a development background can actually get excited about.
Jerrod Bailey (22:41.080)
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that.
As I always tell my entrepreneurs, especially the ones that come in with a developer background, developer mentality, I say the best sales systems and marketing systems for that matter, tend to come from people with technical backgrounds because they think in terms of systems already, they think in terms of scale.
And that's really the sort of mentality that the modern CRO has in is how can technology and scale really be applied to my revenue machinery?
And then once you build a system, it's much easier and less emotionally threatening to deal with a system that's sort of constantly generating an output that you can then interact with and make decisions off of than just trying to go and find your first five customers by cold calling and hearing a bunch of no's.
And when you're a technical founder or any kind of founder and you hear people telling you no to your product, that's a really emotionally difficult place.
To be.
I know founders that if they hear five no's in a day, they give up selling altogether.
And they'll admit it.
They'll say, look, if I hear five nos, I'm done.
I can't keep having people call my kids ugly.
I have to go back, regroup, and come back again and try it tomorrow.
But if you create systems, there's a lot less of that sort of emotional fortitude required and it turns into more of a, of systemization management.
Omer (24:02.610)
Okay, great.
So this might be a good segue into talking about a specific tactic that hopefully we can kind of share some best practices and lessons from.
But it could be something that somebody listening to this could start working and implementing today.
Jerrod Bailey (24:23.570)
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
We'll talk about some tactics that are really lightweight.
You won't perfect them day one, but just starting them will lead you to being an expert at it.
And once you know these tactics, you can pull them out anytime and they're useful all the time.
And for a lot of different things from finding talent, not just finding customers, but finding talent, finding investors.
I mean, you name it.
If you can really nail the mechanics of reaching out to the market at scale, you can really use it for a lot of really powerful things inside of a business.
So, yeah, I mean, you want me to, want me to kind of get started, lay the framework here?
Omer (25:02.200)
Yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Jerrod Bailey (25:03.560)
Okay.
Well, it really, it starts with data.
A lot of, a lot of companies.
And we're going to talk, I'm going to talk.
Some strategies are really B2B friendly.
You can use them for B2C, but we'll talk B2B because it's easier and there's, there's a lot less know how that you need to do it.
But let's say we're in a B2B scenario and we want to reach out to, you know, vice presidents of HR at, you know, companies of some size.
We'll, we'll focus that in a second.
So I want to reach out to vice president of HR because I have a SaaS solution that I think they all would love.
But how do I do it right?
And so a lot of startups will think, okay, well who's in our network and can our investors introduce us to anyone?
Does our board members know anybody?
And they'll build a list of like, you know, 10, 20 people and they'll start to make some phone calls and then they'll, they'll use some, you know, kind of different messaging with each one.
They're kind of trying to figure out what works, what doesn't.
And then, you know, some of them respond, some of them don't, and eventually they end up with like, you know, a couple of, of demos.
And that's just never going to get you there as a company.
Right.
So what we want to do is we want to take the mechanics of just proper prospecting and we want to do it at scale.
So to do that, to start that, we need to have enough data if we're going to do something at scale.
Meaning maybe I'm going to reach 500 people a week, maybe I'm going to reach 500 people a day.
Well, if I'm going to do that, I have to have enough data, enough people to actually do that with.
Right.
Otherwise, if I have a list of 500, I've got one day of prospecting that I can do.
So I want to create the ability to build a machine that runs for a long time and creates a lot of data and a lot of, a lot of activity.
So I need to start with data.
And so there's a lot of different ways to go.
Some people go and buy lists.
I don't really recommend that.
Most lists are old, they're full of spam traps.
If you do buy a list, you need to know how to sanitize them.
You know, other companies will, you know, they'll start with maybe an email list they've already developed, maybe they've got a content strategy, inbound stuff, and they've got a lot of emails that have been driven off of that.
But let's assume we're starting from scratch.
We have nothing.
A really good source of B2B lists is LinkedIn.
Omer (27:06.320)
Right.
Jerrod Bailey (27:06.640)
Everybody knows that.
Everybody in the business world's on it, at least enough that it's most of the community that we want to reach out to.
But the hard part about LinkedIn is it's inside LinkedIn.
It's all this great data that's kept up by its individual members because they're incentivized to do it.
But we have no way of turning that into something that we can go use to prospect.
Omer (27:27.770)
Yeah, and they're not very API friendly these days as well, so.
Jerrod Bailey (27:31.290)
Oh, yeah.
I mean, gosh, there's a lot of tombstones out there for startups that built their whole company on LinkedIn's API and then saw their company shut down when that API shut down last year.
But yeah, so that's, that's the other thing is, over time, LinkedIn gets more and more protective of that of that data.
So what we want to do is we want to try to figure out ways of hacking that system and try to figure out how to leverage LinkedIn in our favor and, and then put it into tactics that are easier to use.
So you have to solve the data piece, and so that's where we start.
So if anybody has ever used LinkedIn, they've probably used the search field.
Some of your listeners probably have used the advanced search, right?
It's that little link right next to the field in the top middle.
When you click on Advanced Search, it opens up all of these fields that you can search against to search for people on LinkedIn.
What a lot of people don't know is that advanced search supports Boolean expressions, right?
Boolean being I can nest arguments like and, or statements.
And I can create, I can use negative keywords.
And I could basically assemble and create a search that's very, very powerful.
A lot of people use it on Google to generate better searches with Google.
But Boolean searches on LinkedIn.
For example, if I go into the Advanced search, I go into the title field.
I want to search for VPs of HR.
If I actually type in VP of HR in that field and I hit enter, I might get 10,000 results.
But if I create a Boolean expression, I might say, because some people call themselves VP of hr, some people call themselves Vice President of hr, some people call themselves Vice President of Human Resources.
I want to capture all of those, and I want to see if I can assemble a really big list.
So I might create a Boolean expression that in parentheses I search for the term VP or vice to capture vice president.
And then I'll close those parentheses, I'll say and, and then another set of parentheses, I might look for HR or Human Resources in quotes.
And now I've expanded my, my search just by building a Boolean expression.
And then if I execute that search, my 10,000 results might go up to 50,000 results.
So suddenly I'm starting to get this really big list of potential prospects.
This is great.
I know them by name.
I don't have any way of getting them out of LinkedIn yet.
But I, but I know who my buyer is, and that's a really powerful place to be as an entrepreneur.
But let's say, you know, maybe I also want to talk about directors.
So I expand my, my VP or vice Boolean search to VP or vice or Director, and suddenly I've got 100,000 results.
So you can see I'm really starting to build this huge list now.
The danger I'm running into is that may not be targeted.
I'm targeting companies of all different size in all different industries.
Let's say I just want to focus on the hospitality industry and this case.
Well, there's a search field for that and I can filter based on that.
So I can take my hundred thousand, you know, HR people and I can filter it down into maybe 10,000 in the hospitality industry and suddenly I'm getting, I'm getting pretty targeted.
Maybe I also knock off small companies out of that.
I look for only companies of a certain size.
There's an employee filter that you can use.
And then next thing you know, I've got this list of, let's say, 5,000 highly targeted people that would buy, that would or could buy my product.
That's a great place to start.
And most startups never get that far.
They never really understand who their universe of buyers are because they just don't know how to use some of the, some of the tools out there.
But now that's my starting point.
I've got these 5,000 buyers.
So now the question is, how can I use that list?
There's a tool that we use, there's a couple of things that we can do.
Let me start with this before I tell you how to, how you could potentially get to that data.
Omer (31:11.260)
So the problem we have right now is we have this list.
We don't even have a list, we have a search result.
Right.
Because from what I understand from LinkedIn, that advanced search, you can't even export to a CSV or anything like that.
Jerrod Bailey (31:30.780)
That's right.
Omer (31:31.500)
And so you don't have that.
And there's no easy way to get hold of the email addresses of those people.
And I probably don't have enough InMail credits with LinkedIn to email 50,000 people.
Jerrod Bailey (31:44.250)
That's right.
That's right.
So we're stuck right now, right?
We can't get the data out.
So that's, that's a problem to solve and we will in a second.
But independent of that problem, you think about LinkedIn as a communication method and it's really an interesting tool.
A lot of people don't understand LinkedIn, but you know, when I reach out to you, like when I reach out to you, Omar, and LinkedIn, I sent you a connection request, you accepted it, and then we might have had a conversation around, inside of LinkedIn, around what's going on.
But before you accepted that connection request from me, the first thing you did was click on my name to find out who I am.
And that's what's great about LinkedIn that's different than email and other places.
It gives your perspective, buyer context to actually ask themselves, do I want to connect to this person?
And so there's immediate opportunity within LinkedIn to give context to people that email doesn't give them, to give them a face behind the name to do all sorts of things that make you more approachable as a buyer.
Also, LinkedIn's good and efficient in terms of communicating with people because, you know, if I send you a connection request, you're probably getting it on your LinkedIn app, on your phone, you're probably also seeing it on the web app, you're probably also getting an email about me because you've probably got your email hooked up to LinkedIn.
So LinkedIn sort of like has this really, it's this really efficient way of sort of letting somebody know that you're there.
So there's kind of some efficiencies with it.
And even though we get a lot of spam on our LinkedIn, we still probably read all of it.
We don't respond to it, we don't accept everything that comes through, but we read most of what comes through.
So the deliverability rate and the, and the open rate, if you will, of LinkedIn is significantly more higher than something like email, for example.
So we're already starting off with a good medium.
We just have to figure out how we're going to use it now, what salespeople do, what a good salespeople would do if he had or she had the ability to build that Boolean search.
Even without that, they'll search for their prospective customer on LinkedIn and a good salesperson will go to that customer on that list, that prospective customer, and they will either send an InMail or when they run out of InMails, they'll send a connection request and they'll say hey, so and so, I'm so and so with this company.
This is what we do.
I'd love to talk to you sometime or I would love your advice on our product that we're launching or hey, we're going to be at this big trade show in your area next week.
Let's set up a time to get together.
I'd love to get more of your guys story, some sort of message that is going to create that initial connection, right?
What they're not looking for is a sale, they're looking for a connection.
And that's the first conversion that a good salesperson wants in their funnel.
Once if that good Salesperson reached out to 10 people on LinkedIn using that method.
It's very likely that 20 to 30% of those people would actually accept.
It would be a lot higher.
I've seen acceptance rates north of 90% with the right message, but let's say 20 to 30% would accept something like that.
So now I've got two to three, you know, companies who have said, yeah, let's connect, I see what your value proposition is.
Let's connect.
Maybe I've gone to your LinkedIn profile and that's been optimized.
So I know, oh, okay, I know what this person does.
Oh, that's interesting.
They have a value proposition that I like.
You know, they've given me enough information to say, yeah, I would like, I see value in connecting to this individual.
So I've got my three new connections.
Now a good salesperson would monitor who accepted and then everyone who accepted, they go back to that person on LinkedIn and they'd send a follow up message.
Now they're unconstrained by their 300 character limit.
They can say, hey Omer, thanks for connecting.
As I said, you know, we're going to be at that show in, you know, in Portland next week.
Would love to meet you or I would, you're an expert in the space.
I would really love and appreciate your expert guidance on what we're building because we're building a tool that does this and that.
And of those three people that I connected with originally, one or all three may reply back and go, yeah, that sounds great, let's get together or here's my email or what are you doing next week?
And that's just a good sales best practices process.
The problem is, is that salespeople can't do the mechanics of that at scale.
They could, but they're busy building proposals and going to networking events and doing and being on planes to go fly and see customers.
And then if you ask an entrepreneur to do that, you even have less ability.
Entrepreneurs building product, they're capital raising, they're dealing with client support issues, they're doing all the other stuff.
They don't have the time to go through that great Boolean search we set up and just execute the mechanics of using maybe the same message, you know, with changing names and just doing that more than once.
If you do get a good sales rep, they might do that, you know, they might reach out to 50 people a week.
Well, if that's a good system and that system's worth doing and you're creating all these connections with clients and you're getting all these emails just, just even before they've even connected, then it stands to reason that doing that system at scale might have benefit.
Instead of 50 people a week, can I reach 500 people a week?
And when you start talking about that, you start saying, well, you know what, I could sit here and do this cutting and pasting and going through all these people to try to get them to go through this conversion funnel.
Or I could have an intern do it and I could just have that intern just do that one thing.
Or I could go to Upwork and have somebody logged in as me to LinkedIn, really executing that work workflow.
So in that a full time person, you know, working offshore for, you know, four bucks an hour, they can hit 500 people a week.
And what you'll see if you just execute that one workflow and maybe you're ab testing, right, so you can have two different messages as you're going through it, you'll really start to see how quickly you can fill a funnel and create connectivity.
So we do this, we've been doing this for a long time.
This is one of quite a few tactics that we'll use.
This works really well when you're first getting out into market.
It doesn't scale forever.
You can't do the LinkedIn strategy forever.
But we've implemented this with companies that have averaged one or two demos a month, and next thing you know, they'll jump up to like 60 or 70 demos a month without adding a person to the sales team.
Right.
Maybe an overseas person.
Omer (37:54.080)
So the goal here isn't to try and get that list and extract that information out of LinkedIn into some kind of email list.
What we're doing here or with this particular hack is to identify the prospects and then have some kind of scalable way of sending them a kind of personalized message and just basically growing connections with people who are target prospects within LinkedIn.
Jerrod Bailey (38:30.990)
Yeah, that's right.
So we haven't yet solved the problem of how do I extract that data and market to them in other ways.
But what we're doing right now is just saying, look, just LinkedIn itself is a medium to actually prospect.
So you can actually use LinkedIn inside of LinkedIn to actually reach out to its scale, your target users.
And so you imagine 500 people a week, in one month you can reach 2,000 people.
And if 30% of those have converted into connections, you already have a pretty decent asset from a marketing perspective.
But if, you know, another 20% of those convert into Leads you've got.
I mean, you've just engineered a pipeline that never existed 30 days ago.
So it's a really, really powerful method and medium for going out initially and starting to reach your first few users.
Omer (39:17.750)
Okay.
Okay, great.
Jerrod Bailey (39:18.750)
Good, good so far.
Yep.
Okay, so now this is great.
We're happy.
You know, we've got 60 leads where we had one before.
You know, we've got all these.
These people now that have seen our brand and, and there's all this goodness coming out of it.
But we still have another, you know, 5,000 or 4,500 people that we want to.
We want to get to, and maybe LinkedIn isn't the best way to get to every one of them.
So we go back to that Boolean list, that search results, and we ask ourselves, how do we extract it?
So there's actually, there's a lot of tools out there now that are always playing the game with LinkedIn of getting that stuff extracted.
The tool that we use quite a bit now, that kind of solves all of our problems.
We used to use, like, three different tools to do it.
We now use a tool called Perspectify, and it's Perspectify IO.
And what's cool about Perspectify, it's a browser plugin, and it's also a SaaS product on the back end.
And, you know, you install it on your.
On your browser, and then you go into LinkedIn and you build that Boolean search or use other criteria for search.
And then what it'll do is it'll introduce these new buttons into the LinkedIn UI.
And the button says something like, prospect this person or prospect this whole list.
And you decide, you get the list to the point where it's 80, 90% of accurate.
If you're 100%, you're probably filtering too much.
If you're less than 80%, it's too much noise in the system.
But you get to a list where you're like, this is a really great list, and then you use a tool like Perspectify and it'll actually go through and it'll extract all of those people, including their titles and all sorts of other information, their geography, where they're based, their first name, last name, and it'll put that into a system that then you can generate a CSV file out of.
But what's cool about Perspectify is then it'll go and it'll actually.
It'll look at that user.
Let's say that user works at Cisco.
It'll open up their current company page, it'll find that URL and it'll start to use that URL to guess their email.
And they do all these really crazy things to guess emails and then ultimately validate emails.
But that's essentially what they do in the background.
So after you've prospected your list of 5,000 people, Prospectify is busy on the back end guessing email addresses for you and then actually scoring them and saying, hey, these green ones are good to go.
You can contact them.
Here's some blue ones that are questionable, and here's some red ones we couldn't figure out.
But what that does is it really quickly solves the entire data problem problem.
Right.
And so now I've turned, or I can turn that list of 5,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 ultimately into a list of email addresses.
And now I'm free to do my next outreach tactic.
Omer (41:56.390)
I'm just looking at the Prospectify website.
This product is turning your advanced search result on LinkedIn into a list of prospects here within Prospectify.
And then as you explained, it's kind of trying to figure out what email address belongs to each person.
And then can you use the tool to actually do the email outreach as well within there is it all kind of.
Jerrod Bailey (42:29.930)
Good question.
So Perspectify is primarily a list building tool.
And then what you do from there is you, you export that list from Perspectify, you drop it into whatever your, for example, email tool might be.
Omer (42:42.520)
Okay.
Jerrod Bailey (42:43.800)
So it does not do the emailing, it's just doing the list building portion of it.
Omer (42:48.360)
Got it.
Good.
So let's say we have done that.
I see they're based in Arizona as well.
Is this one of the companies that you've been helping grow?
Jerrod Bailey (42:57.960)
Kind of.
Actually my head of growth here at Tall Wave, he's actually the founder of that company.
And we were trying to solve this problem all the time with multiple tools, so he just went ahead and built one.
So it's been working great.
But we have no Tall Way has no, like ownership in this company, that sort of thing.
It wasn't one that we incubated, at least not directly.
Omer (43:18.910)
Okay, great.
So we have a list of verified emails.
I'm curious about just kind of the pricing, the way that it works.
They sort of mentioned sort of a, a starter plan at $40 a month for 100 verified emails.
And it goes up to $975 a month for 5,000 verified emails.
But what if, what if I did have 50,000 potential prospects in LinkedIn?
How does that work?
Am I paying $9,000 a month to this product?
Jerrod Bailey (43:52.160)
Yeah, it's just, it's a monthly recurring SaaS model.
You can go up or down or discontinue at any point.
So if you only needed to pull, you know, 2,000 prospects, you could, you could buy one of their bigger plans and pull them all out in a month and then discontinue.
Omer (44:06.420)
Okay.
Because I don't need to keep it there forever.
Jerrod Bailey (44:08.620)
Exactly.
Omer (44:09.060)
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay, got it.
Jerrod Bailey (44:11.460)
So now we've got this list, let's say we are of our 5,000 people that turned into 3,500 email addresses that we can use.
So now that's my next asset.
And by the way, I have first name, last name in different fields, I have their current title and where they're at.
So I have some other information I could potentially use for customized outreach.
So now I need a tool to actually do the outreach.
And you know, we've used a lot of different tools in the past.
Yesware, ToutApp, Salesloft, their cadence tool is a popular one.
We use Outreach IO for quite a while.
We're actually now pretty heavily using a tool called Reply and you can find it at ReplyApp IO and it's a great, simple tool for doing outbound email cadences at scale and it's got a really great price point.
It's very, very competitive and it's just kind of one of our favorites.
And so what you do is you take that CSV file that you exported from Perspectify, your 3500 names and email addresses, and you put that into Reply app.
And in Reply app, this is where you set up your email cadence.
So let's go back to like best practices for a sales rep. A good sales rep, if he had a hundred people that he was emailing, he would email each of them a very short, maybe slightly customized email address or email, excuse me, it would be to that person's name.
It would look like a natural email coming out of the his or her, you know, Gmail, not, not one of those kind of HTML formatted things that you're sure somebody's spamming you, but he would send a very natural email to that person.
He might have some analytics tool plugged in where he could see if that person opened the email up.
But then in three days or five days or whatever, if that person didn't respond, that good sales rep would then send a follow up.
He'd reply back to his original email and say, hey, I'm just trying again by the way, here's some, here's value, Prop 123 that may be interesting, or here's something that our customers find valuable.
Here's a piece of content that they really like.
I just wanted to give it to you.
Would love to find out who at your organization deals with HR issues.
And then three days later, if that person didn't reply to that email, that good sales rep would send another one and he'd say something like, hey, just trying again, here's something else that's interesting, trying to build value.
And then what would happen is before that email that sales rep gave up, he'd want to create four or even five connections to that person, four touch points before he gives up.
Because what happens in the email world is half of your leads come in steps three and four of that cadence.
So if you don't get to steps three and four, you're leaving half of your leads on the table with the same list.
Omer (46:58.990)
So that's really interesting because I think a lot of people would just say after the first or second interaction, okay, I'm done, right?
I mean there's.
Jerrod Bailey (47:08.090)
Yeah, and that's what you would think.
And you'll get some people by the third and fourth step going, no, hey guys, don't bother me, or hey, this is the person that you need over here, right?
Give you a referral, which is also great.
But you will actually find half of your actual lead saying, yes, I want to talk, let's get together will happen in steps three and four of that cadence.
So if that sales rep gave up before step three or step four, then he or she is losing out on an opportunity they would have found.
The problem is the manual effort of doing those steps and remembering who to send it to.
And if you're doing those things every day just becomes unmanageable.
So you use a tool like Reply and it manages the sequences for you.
You write them ahead of time.
You put into those the custom fields like first name or title or company or other things that you want to customize.
And then the tool manages the process of sequencing those out over time.
Now what happens is if Prospect does not reply to one of your emails, then they continue to the sequence.
If they do reply, however, the system's smart enough to know that and it takes them out of the sequence.
So it just kind of manages all of that 99% of the sort of the manual effort up front.
So imagine we take that 3500 person list, we drop it into something like Reply, and we set a daily Limit of, let's say 50 emails a day.
We want 50 emails to go out every day to new people and then in three days, you know, those same 50 people will get their follow up step and then three days later another follow up step.
But every day we're sending out to 50 new people.
You can imagine the type of activity and level of just interaction that would happen over time and it's really fully automated.
So now our sales rep, instead of going out and doing all those manual efforts that most sales reps frankly don't ever do, and they certainly don't to it at scale, now they're spending their time doing what we want them to do.
They're either reacting to people on LinkedIn that are replying with interest, or they're reacting to people over email that are replying with interest.
And that's really the most leverageable place for any either sales rep or entrepreneur to be operating when it comes to their sales pipeline is actually talking to customers.
The rest of that process and all that systemization was done ahead of time and then just run and then, and then tuned over time.
Omer (49:27.110)
Perfect.
So I really like that.
So basically somebody could go and set that up, build a list, have a tool like Reply or some of the others that you mentioned like yesware or Toutapple, whatever you're using, and hopefully just have a system where you've sort of defined up up ahead what emails and what sequence and what steps and what frequency you want to send these out at.
And the first you really kind of get involved in the process, I guess is when somebody replies to one of those emails, right.
And puts their hand up to say that they're interested.
Jerrod Bailey (50:11.990)
Yeah, that's right.
And it's usually you've wrapped these systems, whether it's on the LinkedIn or the email system, they're wrapped around a particular person.
Right.
It might be the founder, might be a sales rep, could be the head of product, whoever.
So yeah, that person just seeing what comes into their inbox and they're responding to it.
Omer (50:29.610)
Got it.
I'm curious, what's the benefit of using a tool like Reply compared to maybe just some Autoresponder software like AWeber or Infusionsoft or something like that.
Jerrod Bailey (50:51.540)
Great question.
Okay, so a lot of people try to build, they try to use their nurturing platform like infusionsoft or Salesforce or these other ones too to do all of their outbound emailing.
And there's usually a couple of problems with those systems.
One, a lot of those systems force you to sort of HTML format your email.
So right off the bat your users are going to see this email that's sort of HTML formatted and it looks like it came out of a email farm and that immediately is going to affect your open and response rate.
Right.
So that's one reason you want to do it.
The second reason is a lot of those tools are sending from centralized email servers and those email servers, IP addresses are known by Google, by Gmail and everyone else.
And so it's really easy for Gmail to see an email come from that, those server farms and say, oh, I'm putting you in the promotions tab or oh, I'm sending you to the spam folder.
Whereas if you're using tools like Toutapp and like Reply, they're sending, those tools are sending emails from your Gmail instance.
And so it looks like a natural email coming through.
So you're, yeah, so your deliverability rates are going to be north of 80, 90%.
Your open rates should be, you know, 30 to 60, 60%.
And so it's just a much better platform for sort of getting the email opened, delivered, opened, read and clicked through or responded to.
Omer (52:18.950)
Awesome.
Jerrod Bailey (52:19.990)
Yeah.
Omer (52:21.670)
Is there anything else that folks should know about implementing something like this?
Any kind of gotchas or things to avoid or.
Yeah, maybe any other tools that might be useful for people?
Jerrod Bailey (52:38.720)
Great question.
So you always want to know what the downsides are to anything that you're doing.
And so like the LinkedIn thing for example, that can work great for many months, but at some point you can't send that a lot more people a connection request without getting in trouble with LinkedIn.
So there's a very high threshold on that, but eventually that runs out.
Typically what we see with most, most of our portfolios is when their new sales reps come in, they'll use the LinkedIn strategy for six months.
That sales rep will be hyper connected in their space and they'll have a bunch of leads from it.
But then they'll fall back to more of like the email strategy, some of the other social automation strategies, some other things.
So you know, LinkedIn doesn't, doesn't maintain forever.
It's something that's good to do for about six months per person.
The, the email strategy, if you're going to send out a lot of emails and if you're not really making sure that you want to make sure your email messaging is not spammy, you want it to be very natural.
You want to be asking for, you know, referrals and things like that.
You want to be really non confrontational with it.
But if you're like super spammy and you're going to like blast the entire world with emails, you might want to consider running that system through a co version of your domain.
Meaning you don't want to run the risk of ever getting your primary domain caught in like, you know, everyone has a spam score.
You want to make sure that you protect that, that score all the time.
So you'll, you can say, you know, set up a, an email, but with your, you know, your domain co as an alternative to dot com.
That's a way of just making sure that you're always protecting your main domain from anything spam related.
Omer (54:18.230)
Got it.
Okay.
And could, could something like this work for?
I, I don't know.
Could I use the same kind of approach and tools to find prospects on Twitter?
Jerrod Bailey (54:35.190)
Yes.
So Twitter's a great, a great animal.
Sometimes.
It depends on if your prospects are on Twitter.
Some markets aren't.
But if you're going after like marketers or people in the publishing industry or fashion industries or entertainment, a lot of them are on Twitter.
But there's a tool that I love called Socito S as in Sam O C as in Charlie Edo.
It's a techstars grad out of Seattle.
And what I described already with that LinkedIn workflow where you sort of automate these steps of sort of reaching people and then ultimately interacting with them.
So Sito is a tool that automates that for, for Twitter.
So you don't even need, you know, an intern or an offshore person.
It's a lot of, it's just fully automated.
So we have one of our companies, for example is it's almost exclusively only running on Socito as a platform and its entire top of the funnel is automated.
So it, for the right type of product or service, Socito as a, as a prospecting tool over Twitter can be really powerful.
And there's a lot of other ways to use Twitter to do outbound, but if you're just getting into it, I think Socito is a good first choice.
Omer (55:49.240)
Yeah, maybe I'll have to get you back one day.
We'll talk about Twitter as well.
This has really been fascinating stuff.
Jerrod Bailey (55:54.320)
Yeah.
Omer (55:55.519)
Cool.
Okay, so to recap, we talked about the overall sort of framework in building this scalable outbound sales system, or what you call a, a scalable revenue machine.
And we talked about the three sort of pillars of that.
One was the product and making sure that folks are paying attention to the metrics around activation, engagement and Retention and making sure that those metrics are healthy before they start moving on to the next step.
Then the second pillar was around conversion, which was really about taking your marketing site and building a funnel where you can start to capture new leads and nurture them through your funnel.
And then the third part of that was acquisition, which was using various tactics and tools to drive traffic into that funnel.
Jerrod Bailey (56:58.590)
That's right.
Omer (56:59.550)
And then we sort of went through and Talked about the LinkedIn example and how that can be used, how you can basically do some prospecting on LinkedIn.
And what I love about that is that kind of thinking about the framework and some of the.
Just the general principles that you shared.
I can see how that could work on Twitter or in a number of other places, as long as you're kind of thinking less about the specific platform or whatever.
I think the principle, I think what I took away was, boils down to figure out where you can get this data.
And there seem to be no shortage of tools out there which will help you in some shape or form to extract that data and then to do some sort of email outreach.
And the lessons that I sort of took away from the email outreach were you're probably going to have to, what, communicate maybe at least four or five times with somebody?
Jerrod Bailey (58:04.930)
Yeah, yeah.
I would say a four step cadence is where you want to start, and then you'll decide if you want to add another step to it.
Omer (58:11.170)
Okay.
And we're trying to keep it very natural.
It's not.
We're not trying to be pushy.
It's kind of more focused on either, as you said, sort of getting referrals or feedback on the product people are building, but trying to get people to engage with you so you can continue that conversation with them on your product.
And if you can't make a sale, maybe you're just going to get some great feedback about how to make your product better.
Jerrod Bailey (58:40.090)
Exactly.
You'll find your ability to accelerate your learning once you start talking to strangers is rapidly accelerated.
Omer (58:48.730)
Great.
This is really good stuff.
Thank you, Jarrett.
All right, it's time for our lightning round.
I'm going to ask you a series of questions.
I'd like you to answer them just as quickly as you can do it.
All right, so what's the best piece of business advice that you've ever received?
Jerrod Bailey (59:11.900)
I would say any deal can be won in the first five minutes if you just tell a story that your buyer wants to.
To be a part of.
Omer (59:19.540)
Nice.
What book would you recommend to our audience and why?
Jerrod Bailey (59:23.860)
Well, I love Sales Acceleration Formula by Mark Roberg.
It's just very, very comprehensive but extremely practical.
Omer (59:35.540)
Who was the author?
I haven't heard of that book before.
Jerrod Bailey (59:37.780)
Yeah, Mark Roberg.
I believe he was the VP of Sales, or CRO for HubSpot, if I'm not mistaken.
Omer (59:44.020)
Okay, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
Jerrod Bailey (59:45.960)
But he wrote essentially, a manual through the life cycle of a tech company of how you really build a sustainable sales and revenue machine.
Omer (59:54.040)
What's one attribute or characteristic in your mind of a successful entrepreneur?
Jerrod Bailey (1:00:01.000)
I would say the biggest one is just recognition of the skill sets required to execute.
There's a lot of entrepreneurs that have a vague idea of the skill sets.
And so when they go out to try to pick the people to execute, they pick up.
They pick people who really don't have those skill sets.
So ultimately, the entrepreneur can't do everything.
He or she has to know functionally what's required.
And they have to spend time learning that in order to select the right people.
The ones who do that really well have amazing companies.
Omer (1:00:29.660)
What's your favorite personal productivity tool or habit?
Jerrod Bailey (1:00:34.300)
Well, I like Slack.
We've replaced all internal communication with it.
But it's good for everything from managing sales leads to clients to campaign developments.
It's even good for building communities of your buyers.
On.
It's just an awesome tool.
Omer (1:00:49.260)
What's a new or crazy business idea that you'd love to pursue if you had the extra time?
Jerrod Bailey (1:00:56.780)
Unfortunately, I'm in the business where I'm constantly plagued by good ideas.
I think if I could go and do it all over again, I would
Omer (1:01:04.580)
get into the water.
Jerrod Bailey (1:01:05.270)
Water business or electric car business?
One of those two.
Those both are huge problems that I find a lot of interest in.
I would love to build an electric car that produces potable water as you drive it.
That would be the ultimate, I guess.
Omer (1:01:16.470)
Yeah, exactly.
Combining your passions.
Right.
What's an interesting or fun fact about you that most people don't know?
Jerrod Bailey (1:01:26.150)
Most people don't know that I'm a twin.
They also don't know that I have won karaoke competition with Neil diamond songs and Weezer songs particularly.
Wow.
Omer (1:01:37.710)
And finally, what is one of your most important passions outside of your work and besides karaoke?
Jerrod Bailey (1:01:45.070)
I'm a dedicated dad.
I'm very active in my church, and I'm also focused on teen education and formation in inner city and elsewhere.
It's a big passion of mine.
Omer (1:01:55.230)
Awesome.
Jared, I want to thank you for joining me today and just sharing your experiences with us and sort of walking through the LinkedIn tactic and hopefully, folks listening will be able to get some value from that and maybe start implementing that and maybe one day we can hear some success stories that we can kind of get back to you with.
If folks want to find out more about Toll Wave or they want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Sure.
Jerrod Bailey (1:02:28.910)
Well our website's easy.
It's just tallwave.com it's t a l l w a v e dot com and then I'm easy to get a hold of.
I would suggest people hit me up on LinkedIn since we've been talking about it.
My name's spelled Funnies J E R R O D and then Bailey is my last name.
Omer (1:02:46.990)
Awesome.
Jerrod Bailey (1:02:47.950)
Perfect.
Omer (1:02:48.590)
Great.
Sarah, thanks again and I really do look forward to continuing this conversation at some time and hopefully sharing even more of your wisdom with our audience us indeed.
Jerrod Bailey (1:02:58.030)
It'd be my pleasure.
Thanks Omar.
Omer (1:02:59.510)
Cheers.
