Omer (00:11.520)
Welcome to another episode of the SaaS Podcast.
I'm your host, Omer Khan, and this is the show where I interview proven founders and industry experts who share their stories, strategies, and insights to help you build, launch, and grow your SaaS business.
In this episode, I talked to Andrea Waltz, the author of the book Go for no.
Yes is the destination.
No is how you get there.
There's plenty of advice out there on how to get people to say yes, but Go for no recommends just the opposite.
And it shows how focusing on increasing your failure rate can accelerate your momentum towards success.
In this interview, you'll learn about the old and new models for success and failure, how you can apply Go for no to help you achieve your business goals, what you can do to overcome fear of failure and rejection, and how to get past failures quickly and move on.
So if you're currently struggling to get more people on demo calls, or struggling to close more sales, or you're having a hard time getting investors to say yes to your pitch, then you might find this episode useful.
Or if you don't currently have any of those specific issues, but feel like you need to build your mental resilience, then you might find some useful insights here.
So I hope you enjoy the interview.
Andrea, welcome to the show.
Andrea Waltz (01:38.710)
Thank you so much.
It is great to be with you.
Omer (01:41.670)
Now, I always like to ask my guests just a little bit about kind of what gets them out of bed, what drives or motivates them.
So is there a favorite quote for you, or in your own words, just kind of tell us a little bit about what motivates you to work on your business every day?
Andrea Waltz (01:55.580)
Well, what motivates me actually is going to sound a little crazy.
It really is failure.
And one of my favorite quotes is, yes is the destination, but no is how you get there.
And I believe very strongly in helping people overcome fear of failure and fear of rejection.
I've seen what it has done in my own life and business.
And so really what gets me out of bed is to help people over that failure fear.
Because it makes me so crazy to think how people let failure stop them.
And it's something that if you can change your mindset about it and embrace it, it can change everything for you.
Omer (02:39.060)
And that happens to be the title of your book.
Go for no.
Yes is the destination.
No is how you get there, which was written by Richard Fenton, who is your husband, right?
Andrea Waltz (02:49.190)
That's right.
Husband, business partner.
We spend all day together and manage not to kill each other.
Omer (02:55.910)
That alone is very impressive.
Andrea Waltz (02:57.670)
Right.
Omer (02:58.630)
Tell us a Little bit about the book.
What is the book about?
Andrea Waltz (03:01.910)
So fundamentally, it's a very short book.
We designed it that way on purpose.
We wanted people to be able to grab it, take it on the airplane with them, read it in 90 minutes.
And it is a fable, which is kind of a unique thing in and of itself.
We wanted to be able to share the code concepts of what go for no is in a story format so that people would get them, but also remember it and be kind of emotionally connected to the story, which has a little bit of a supernatural twist at the end.
Richard and I also have written some paranormal suspense books and screenplays, so we're definitely very creative, but we wanted to get this message across, which is basically a message about failing your way to success.
It's about tapping into the power of failure and really embracing the word know rather than avoiding it in order to be more successful.
Omer (03:53.160)
Yeah, I read the book some time ago and I thought it was great.
And I love the.
The story in there because it just made it.
It made it a lot more interesting to read and made the whole thing a lot more memorable.
So that's kind of, you know, my unofficial review here.
Andrea Waltz (04:11.720)
Good.
Good.
Okay.
Omer (04:13.560)
How did you two come about writing that book?
Andrea Waltz (04:16.450)
Well, when we first launched our company, we quit our corporate jobs.
Basically had no safety net, which I don't recommend.
But we started doing speaking and training and back.
This is like almost 20 years ago now.
Our clients were big, large Fortune 500 retail organizations, and we would teach customer service and management strategies.
Sales was a big piece and go for no was a little piece of what we taught and of everything that we taught.
That was the thing that seemed to impact these businesses the most.
And we realized that it wasn't just a problem in one industry.
It was a problem in every industry.
Literally.
We've spoken to probably every type of business industry profession you can imagine.
Because the fear of failure and rejection and the need to overcome it to be more successful and to achieve your goals and dreams is kind of ubiquitous.
I mean, it's just everybody has to have that skill.
No matter how savvy you are techn.
No matter how great your product or service, if you don't have the courage to get out there and be telling people about it and doing everything you can to get your product out to the marketplace, then you're going to have a really great product that no one knows about.
So we just found that that message resonated and it resonated with us too.
Like I said, I get out of bed in the morning because I want to share this message with people.
So we wrote the book, the Funny story.
Is it actually we wrote the book so long ago, it was like in the year 2000 and we finally, when Amazon finally came onto the scene, we put it on Amazon and hit the number one spot in the sales and selling list in 2010.
So I kind of like to joke, we were a 10 year overnight success.
It took a long time to get any traction with that book.
But the important part was we didn't give up.
Omer (06:15.910)
You kind of talk about kind of a new and old model for failure and success.
Can you kind of explain that?
Andrea Waltz (06:24.710)
Absolutely.
Well, this kind of goes to this whole idea of wanting to fail your way to success.
And our philosophy, our strategy really is about embracing failure.
And so the old model is where you are in the middle.
And we have like a very basic model model in the book.
And if you can visualize this, you're in the center and failures on one side of you kind of like a choice on your left side and success is the other choice on your right side.
And the old model is really where, you know, we've all been taught and trained and kind of raised to pick like, okay, do I want to be successful or geez, do I want to fail?
Well, no, I don't really don't want to fail.
So I'm going to do everything within my power to go towards success on the right and avoid failure on my left.
The new model is really where you're on one, one end of the spectrum.
Failure, rejection, hearing the word no, being turned down is in the middle of the model.
And the success that you're seeking is really on the opposite side of the spectrum.
You know, one of my favorite stories is Dyson, the inventor of the Dyson.
Of course he would be the inventor of the Dyson vacuum, but the bagless vacuum cleaner.
I mean he had, he went through like 5,126 failed prototypes before finally hitting on the one that made him a billionaire.
And so it's embracing that model and saying, okay, it's not about avoiding failure.
You, it's going to happen.
It's about going towards it, accepting it.
And then the success that you're seeking is on the other side.
Omer (08:02.040)
That's kind of an interesting way to think about it, I think in, in a couple of ways because one, it helps you to kind of approach what you're doing on a day to day basis differently.
If you think about this way, you're kind of more like, okay, effectively the More I fail, and the more quickly I fail, the faster I'm going to get to success.
So let's just start doing more of that.
But I think it also changes the mindset as well, where potentially people become more willing to take risks.
If you can think like that, I guess.
Andrea Waltz (08:35.610)
Absolutely.
Because if you're not thinking like that, it's so easy to get discouraged and just get demotivated and want to give in.
And if you're doing anything that's interesting, if you're doing anything that's a little different, a little out there, you're going to run into problems, challenges.
People are going to say no, they're not going to get it.
And you have to have that mindset in order to keep going and not give up.
Omer (08:58.010)
What does it mean to go for no?
Andrea Waltz (09:00.880)
So once you kind of have that failure model in place in your head and you embrace that, then the next piece of the puzzle really is to embrace the word no.
And go for no really means to intentionally increase your failure rate.
So if failure is good, we're saying that it is.
You want to intentionally go out and hear no more often.
And so whether it is from an innovation standpoint and product design or something more on the sales side, like getting meetings to demos, getting meeting with VCs to get funding, all of the opportunities in your business, in the entire developmental stage and sales side of your business, where you have these go for no moments where you have to ask, you have to ask for money, you want to ask them for business, you want to ask them to try it out.
You know, there's all these moments that we have in the journey, really, and those moments require you to hear no more often.
So the more of those moments you can create create, the more opportunity you have to be successful.
And so that really is what go for no means.
So if you were going into a meeting, let's say, and you thought to yourself, there's no way that these people are going to fund my business, so there's no way that this large company is going to say yes to me.
Well, in your mind, in that moment, just say, well, hey, you know what?
I'm going to go for no.
Like, no big deal.
I'm going to take a risk, I'm going to take a chance.
I'm not going to decide for them whether they get to see a demo of my product.
Which a lot of times we do that if we're not thinking clearly and we're.
We're kind of in that old mindset, it's no let's just do it, see what happens.
If it's a failure, if we get a no, at least we tried.
Omer (10:46.180)
Yeah.
I mean, so this is interesting because it's not like, go out and make 10 sales calls and do your best to screw up so you can get a no.
Andrea Waltz (10:55.380)
Right, Right.
Omer (10:56.300)
That's not what you're saying.
Andrea Waltz (10:57.540)
No, definitely not.
Definitely not.
I mean, the quality of your presentation is really important.
Right.
But it's just.
It's that mindset to take risks.
And you look at, like, the stories of the big innovators, whether it's Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, and how crazy it was that they had the audacity to meet with some of the people that they met with and to try some of the things they tried.
And we all think they're amazing now because they're so successful.
But at that time, no one knew who they were.
They had no real credibility.
But what they did have was a go for no mindset, which was, yeah, I'm going to take this meeting.
I'm going to show these people I'm going to do this thing right.
And that is what led to their success.
Not saying no, everybody's going to turn me down, so I'm just going to sit here and not show my product to anybody.
Omer (11:46.720)
There was a quote that I came across, and I asked you about this, this earlier, before we started recording, whether it was from the book and.
Which was, if you're not rejected at least three times a week, you're not really trying.
And it turns out it wasn't from the book.
But we both like that quote.
Andrea Waltz (12:03.530)
Yeah, it should be from the book.
Let's say it's from the book.
I don't know.
No, it's a great quote, though.
Omer (12:09.690)
It kind of reminds me of time when I was a teenager and my friends and I used to know this guy who was always dating these amazing girls.
And we were like, well, he's not that special.
Like, what's he got that the rest of us don't have?
And we could never figure it out.
It was like, you know, is it like something he does?
Or is it like some technique or whatever?
And then one day we were just like.
We just saw him and we just asked him and we're like, well, how
Andrea Waltz (12:38.490)
do you do it?
Omer (12:39.250)
And he was like, simple.
He goes, I just get told no more than you do.
Andrea Waltz (12:42.930)
Oh, my gosh.
Omer (12:44.050)
It was like, wow.
It's like I never even thought of it like that.
So maybe he read the book.
But, no, I love that.
Andrea Waltz (12:51.370)
I love that.
Is so true.
And I have to tell you, I mean, there are, there are a lot of ways that you can practice go for now.
And yeah, just getting turned down.
So, like, on dates is.
It's one way to learn how to do it.
Right.
Omer (13:05.470)
Okay, so let's say, you know, people listening to this interview typically are going to be SaaS founders or people working on SaaS businesses, and they decide, okay, I'm going to adopt this go for no approach.
What does that mean for them in terms of, okay, how do we start thinking about using this to achieve our business goals?
Andrea Waltz (13:28.850)
Probably my favorite way to implement go for no in your business is to set what we call no goals.
And obviously I'm not talking about setting no goals.
I know that everyone listening to this has a probably goal for the number of dollars you want to bring in or users you want to have, or, you know, all kinds of metrics that you are measuring in order to determine how you're progressing, your level of success, all of that, which is great.
The problem sometimes comes into what those metrics do, and sometimes they kind of don't focus on the behaviors necessary to get there.
The reality is, is that how you're going to get to those yes, I call them yes goals is by getting out there and telling your story about your product as fast as you can to as many qualified people as you can, whether those are individuals or businesses or whatever.
So the process of setting no goals is really simple.
It's just instead of focusing on a quota, like, we want to have three meetings this week or three meetings this month, it's, let's get 100 people or 100 businesses to say no to us each month that, no, they're not interested in our product, no, they don't want to demo, no, they don't want to meet with us.
And without worrying about the quota, without saying, like, okay, we just want to get three, that's fine to have that quota, but if you just focus on the behaviors necessary, which in this case, you know what drives your revenue, you know what drives engagement with your product.
And so you set a goal and you don't worry about the yeses.
So let's say Your goal was 3.
You are out there and you're just focused on getting no's.
Again, you're not doing a bad job.
This is not like you're not wishing or hoping and praying that people turn you down.
It's just about getting out there, there and getting into more activity and sharing about your product.
And you could be at 60 no's maybe you got 10 yeses, you blew your quota out of the water, and you still have 40 no's to go, right.
If.
If you've set a no goal of 100.
So it's just a different way to do this.
Richard and I did this when we launched our, our business.
And after we wrote Go for no and we found ourselves struggling and our goal was to have like, book, like four speaking engagements a month.
And so we'd get on the phone and we'd start calling and we'd like kind of claw our way to the four that we wanted for the month.
And then for the rest of the month, it was like we would just take off.
You know, we would just stop the selling activity because it was like we reached our goal and then we said, wait a minute, if we had 100 companies turn us down, we'll probably end up with the four yeses.
Well, we did.
We had more business than we knew what to do with.
And when things were lean again and we weren't getting the results we wanted, we looked back on the calendar and could always find that time where we just kind of slipped back and were just focused on getting the yeses.
And it's also kind of a fun way to do it.
And we haven't done this because I'm not a technologically savvy person, but it's almost like a gamification way of handling sales.
It's just like, hey, have fun.
See how many you can get.
Right?
Just challenge yourself.
Don't worry if it's, oh, is this the perfect prospect?
Or is this, you know, what if these people are going to say no?
All of the assumptions you have about who's going to say yes and they don't have enough money or they think that we're not big enough for them.
All of those assumptions have to go out the window because you're just trying to hit your no goal and you're just trying to make the best presentation you can.
But you up your game.
And really amazing things have happened to people when they have applied this.
Omer (17:10.040)
Yeah, I think it's an interesting way to kind of think about it.
Like, I'm trying to think of an example.
So let's say we've got somebody who is.
For every hundred leads they get for their business, let's say 10 of them might jump onto a phone call for a demo or something else.
And so I guess the traditional way would be to say, okay, let's shoot for that 10% conversion rate.
Let's try to get 10, 20, whatever, demos each month.
Andrea Waltz (17:44.590)
Right.
Omer (17:45.150)
And if we're kind of taking this go for no approach, it would be okay.
Well, instead of thinking of it like that, let's kind of think of it as getting 90 no's every month.
It'll do two things.
Number one, you hopefully get to the 10% conversion or higher anyway if you take that approach.
Andrea Waltz (18:04.910)
Right.
Omer (18:05.470)
And secondly, you kind of are going to get less discouraged, I guess, when you hear those nos.
Because it's almost like a, as you said, sort of the gamification.
It's almost like a mini celebration every time you get a no.
Because you're kind of hitting this sort of this fun target that you've created for yourself.
And in many ways it's getting you closer to the yes anyway.
Which I think is what the whole premise of the book is about.
Andrea Waltz (18:29.540)
Absolutely, yes.
Like I said.
Yeah, you're so right.
Yes is the destination always.
So if you were doing that, if that was the model, you knew that out of the hundred you were going to get 10, you had 90 no's.
So I mean, you could say we are not going to be successful in our business unless we are having 5,000 people say no to us.
In the process though, we're going to have 50 people or whatever, whatever your ratio is, say yes to us.
And so if you run with that as kind of your model, then it's.
You start thinking a little bigger, like, okay, let's go out there and who can we partner with to get more leads?
How do we get instead of 100 people and then get 10, how can we get a thousand people and get 100?
I mean, you just start playing at a different level and you collect those nodes like you said, and you can make it a game.
Omer (19:26.850)
And I can't remember whether it was from the book or from reading the book.
I kind of remember around that time having this takeaway that if you're not hearing no enough, then you're probably not making a big enough ask, which is kind of another way to think about this.
And it could be, for example, I remember working with a client or somebody had asked me to put together a proposal for something.
And so initially I was like, okay, this is what I think they'd be willing to pay.
And then as I thought about it more, I was like, well, am I really happy with that?
And what value am I delivering?
And what would I be happy getting paid?
What do I feel is fair for this?
And I remember asking for more in this proposal, which I wasn't comfortable at the Time.
But I felt like, okay, well, if I get a no, okay, no big deal, I can kind of celebrate that.
I'll get some feedback and kind of can learn from that.
But it kind of made me more willing to ask for what I thought this transaction was worth rather than what I thought they'd be willing to pay.
The outcome from that particular example was that this client got the proposal and within five minutes they said, okay, let's do it.
And I was like, I still didn't ask for enough.
Andrea Waltz (20:51.240)
I love that.
Well, and see, the key to that is that when you have those moments again, it's like the perfect go for no moment.
Instead of deciding for someone else what they're going to decide, do, spend whatever you put together your proposal.
And it is funny that you're right if they came back so quickly, but you go ahead and you go for it, and that's where your courage to act comes in.
And I think that.
And you're right.
The quote you were referencing is.
Is from the book, which is, you know, if you're not hearing no often enough, you're probably not playing a big enough game.
It means that if people are just saying yes to you left and right, then obviously you need to be asking more people, or maybe you need to be raising your fees or something needs to change because it just shouldn't be that easy.
Now, if you're finding that you're struggling and everyone's saying no to you, then one of two situations exist.
You gotta figure out where the gap is, and you gotta make sure that you are meeting with enough people, getting enough demos, talking to enough people, getting your product in front of enough people.
And traditionally, a lot of people shy away from failure.
They shy away from hearing the word no.
They don't.
They're not getting rejected often enough.
They play it safe.
And in doing so and being protective.
And that's why the model that we talked about was so important.
If you're not out there playing the game enough, then you're ultimately, you're going to put yourself in a position where you might fail, not because you have a bad product, because it's just not being put out into the marketplace enough.
Oftentimes just because of fear of rejection.
Omer (22:34.900)
Yeah.
And that's interesting.
So you have people.
You kind of think about this, and people might think, okay, great.
It's.
In theory, it sounds good.
I like the approach of going for no.
And I can kind of see how I may be able to apply it when it comes to thinking about achieving my business goals.
Or my sales goals or whatever they are.
But then there's the fear of failure, anxiety, and just the whole slew of emotions that come from having to go out and get rejected.
What's your advice for how to deal with those fears or emotions?
Andrea Waltz (23:18.090)
Right.
Well, first of all, you have to understand and be accepting of yourself for having those fears.
It's normal.
Especially if you've been working on something for a long time, you're personally involved in a project.
I mean, you look at artists and you picture an artist standing at a street fair and all the people that walk by and look at the art and just look away or say, oh, that's terrible.
I would never hang that in my living room.
The personal rejection.
And so a lot of people take no personally because either they built it or, or designed it personally or it's something that they really believe in.
And so the rejection is personal.
That anxiety around that, that fear is normal.
That's just a normal thing.
And so my first piece of advice is not to feel ashamed or bad that you have those fears.
It's just to acknowledge them.
And to acknowledge that the best way around those fears is to get out there, take the action.
And then when you do hit your no goal, when you are out there in activity and putting your product out there, to have as many people as possible see it who are qualified to get that potential yes.
To not just celebrate the results.
You know, it's so easy to celebrate the big wins or if you closed a higher percentage than normal, if you had a hundred person demo and you closed 50 people, it would be like, wow, that's amazing.
And we celebrate those results, but also celebrate the activity, right?
Also celebrate the things that maybe didn't go so well.
Celebrate the no's that you did get because that took courage.
And that's where a lot of the risk taking comes from.
And when you celebrate your, your courage, that's how you become more confident.
So it, it all really works together.
But I think the key, Omer, is just to not feel bad.
If you're having fear and feel like it's something that you should be ashamed of, it's just.
But it is something that you want to be mindful of so that it doesn't hold you back, so that it doesn't become something where you have everything going for you in your business.
But this is your Achilles heel.
And I see it happen to a lot of people.
The analogy I like to give is you picture your car and you have your foot on the gas pedal and you should Be revving up and you should be driving off.
And a lot of times people have everything they need in terms of they have gas in the car and experience, which is like, kind of like experience and knowledge and everything great about their product and their company and all of that, but their foot's on the brake.
And oftentimes the brake is that fear.
So if you can remove the fear, that is usually a big restraining force.
And if you can take your foot off the brake, then your foot's just on the gas and now you're really driving off and you have a chance to be successful.
People sometimes think, well, how do I get over that fear?
I have to wait until I'm not afraid.
No, you have to take action.
You have to set no goals and you have to get into activity.
And that will help them fear go away.
Omer (26:40.320)
Because in many ways, some of the fear comes from the expectation or the anticipation that people are going to say no.
And I guess if you are really kind of going for this sort of going for no mindset, then that makes it easier.
And I do remember it's not something that, you know, I've probably practiced as, as much as I should have lately, but I do remember after reading the book, kind of applying it more, and it kind of changed the way that I was dealing with rejection.
And the only way I can kind of describe it is before it was like this kind of worry that people were going to say no, they were going to reject you and it was going to be like, you know, this kind of feeling, you know, taking it personally and feeling like you're worthless or useless and, you know, all this kind of stuff, stuff to people saying no.
And you're like, okay, well, that's another one I can check off.
Great.
I was expecting you probably to say that anyway, I can move on to the next person.
And I don't know, from my experience, it was just kind of easier to take those nos in your stride just by changing the mindset in terms of how you approach this and just expecting to get more no's.
Andrea Waltz (27:59.220)
Yeah.
I mean, the reality is that when it comes to rejection and it comes to getting better results, improving your business, so much of it is mindset.
So much of it is just what are you thinking about and how does what you're thinking about then get internalized into how you're feeling?
And if you're not feeling great about something, then you don't take action.
And so it may sound cliche, like, oh, just more mindset stuff, but your mindset is so Important when it comes to rejection and thinking clearly about failure and taking inevitable reality, which is, hey, you're going to have failures.
People are going to tell you no, not everybody's going to want your product.
You got to find the people that want your product.
You have to find the people.
Not only that, you have to find the people that love your product and want to tell other people about your product.
So you have your work cut out for you.
Right.
But if you can embrace that and then embrace the fact that there's going to be a lot of rejection instead of fighting it and hoping that it doesn't happen, or pretending it's not there, or, or just doing all of the kind of mind games that we do when something's uncomfortable, take the reality and make it positive, then you are in control of yourself, of your emotions, of your business.
More than being out of control.
Omer (29:21.470)
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.
Okay, let's say somebody goes out there and tries this approach and they kind of get over the fear of failure and of rejection and they're getting no's, but maybe they're getting way too many no's.
Maybe, maybe they're just failing over and over.
And so what should people do in that situation?
Like, you know, when do you give up if you're just continuing to get to hear no's all the time?
Andrea Waltz (29:50.690)
If you are getting a lot of no's, and this happens sometimes for a wide variety of reasons.
And we all have.
I think business can be kind of streaky too.
Sometimes you're just on and everybody's saying yes to you and business is just great.
And then sometimes there's just down periods and down times.
So kind of putting that aside, if you're getting a lot of no's, this is the opportunity to figure out what's going on.
And where are we losing people?
Are we losing people?
Where are we losing people?
In the sales process or in the whole process of doing business with us?
And I think that's where you kind of have to analyze how are you generating your leads and are these qualified people or are they not qualified people?
Are you doing a demo for a hundred people and they're all saying no?
That's a really bad.
That's really bad.
Right.
So obviously somewhere the process is breaking down or you're doing demos with tons and tons of people and you know, your return opt out ratio is really high and people aren't staying.
And so, so it's really important to.
This goes back to this failure model thing is embracing that and being willing to have this growth mindset which is, let's learn from our failures.
Let's figure out where the gaps are and really innovate so that you can keep being better and not about being embarrassed or ashamed that this failure is happening.
But what can we learn from it?
How can we improve?
And if you're passionate about the business and the product is something that you care about and it's worthwhile and it's just, you're excited about it, then the answer to giving up is really never.
It's just you have to stay persistent.
You have to keep going.
You're going to have down times and down periods.
And that's where you really need to tap into that persistence and stick with it.
Omer (31:48.360)
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
And I think I also remember from the book that.
But there was kind of a lesson on the importance of follow up as well.
Because if you're hearing no over and over, it could be you're hearing no over and over from new prospects.
But how much are you actually doing to follow up with, you know, existing leads?
And, you know, sometimes people might say no for all kinds of reasons because it might not be right for them today, but it could be in the future.
You know, it could be a variety of reasons.
And I think sometimes we are reluctant to follow up when we don't get kind of an instant yes from somebody.
Andrea Waltz (32:32.770)
Oh my gosh, I could not agree with you more.
Especially in this environment where you especially could be new and people already have some kind of product that they think fills their need.
And I think we are all there these days.
I mean, there's so many applications and so many things that we all have bought into and tapped into and then someone else comes on the market, or maybe they're not new.
Maybe it's just you get exposed to someone else and you're like, I have, you know, I have an app for that, or I have, I'm using.
I'm already on this particular platform, so why would I switch?
And sometimes people just need to see something over and over and over again.
In fact, we talk about this a lot when we do live, training and talk about.
We call them persistent.
Statistics and research has shown that 92% of all customers say no about four times before finally saying yes.
And so it just, you have to present oftentimes and present in multiple ways.
You know, add value to your prospects in multiple ways.
So if, if this one particular way is not working, mix it up, approach them in some other way, that might be the solution that they're looking for.
So it's not always just doing the same thing you.
When you go for no, you've got to get creative, and that really means doing a lot of testing and trying different approaches.
Omer (33:57.280)
Yeah, I love that.
Great advice there.
And certainly a very different way to think about achieving your goals.
So the book is called Go for no.
Yes is the destination.
No is how you get there by Richard Fenton and Andrea Waltz.
If people want to find out more about what you and Richard do, they can go to goforknow.com if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Andrea Waltz (34:27.870)
I'm on social media everywhere, so Twitter, Go for no.
Facebook?
Go for no.
That's probably the best way.
Omer (34:33.310)
Okay, just keep go for no on your mind.
Andrea Waltz (34:36.030)
That's right.
Yes.
Omer (34:38.430)
Great.
Well, Andrea, I appreciate you making the time to join me today and kind of sharing your.
Your experience and sort of expertise in this area.
And I think this will definitely resonate with a lot of people who listen to this show.
Whether it's trying to get people onto a demo for their product or finding the right angel investor or VC or making a sale with an enterprise customer, I think this kind of mindset and approach, which can help all kinds of people, you know, make progress with their business.
So I appreciate you taking the time to join me today and kind of walking us through this.
Andrea Waltz (35:20.940)
Absolutely.
My pleasure.
And I was so excited because I think that this particular industry really needs this mindset.
I think oftentimes people have it on the technical side of innovating, but when it comes to building the business, it's the same way.
Omer (35:37.390)
Yeah, totally.
Well, thanks a lot, and I appreciate you making time to do this.
Andrea Waltz (35:42.350)
My pleasure.
