Omer (00:09.840)
Welcome to another episode of the SaaS Podcast.
I'm your host, Omer Khan, and this is the show where I interview proven founders and industry experts who share their stories, strategies and insights to help you build, launch and grow your SaaS business.
In this episode, I talk to Jeffrey Tiong, the founder and CEO of patsnap, a connected innovation intelligence platform used by R and D teams and IP professionals.
Jeffrey was fresh out of college in Singapore and trying to figure out what he was going to do with his life.
A few years earlier, he had interned for a startup in the US where he'd spent a lot of time researching patents and intellectual property.
He recalled how hard it was to do that research, and he started thinking about a software product that could help to make that work much easier.
He managed to raise around $40,000 from a startup grant through his university.
He spent a third of that money on buying servers and the rest of it on hiring developers.
But that money wasn't enough to get the product built.
In fact, it took two, two years to ship the product.
And during that time, his team had to take on all kinds of projects to help pay the bills.
He finally managed to sign his first customer, which happened to be his university library, and he closed that sale by pleading with the librarian to give his product a shot.
But even after two years, the product was unstable and full of bugs.
And while they found more customers, the team had to deal with complaints and and unhappy customers.
It was a stressful time for Jeffrey.
He was finding customers and closing sales, but at the same time, he and his team were desperately trying to make the product better and more stable.
Today, Jeffrey's company employs around 800 people and has about 8,000 customers.
They've also raised over $51 million in funding, and their customers include companies and organizations like Walt Disney, Tesla and NASA.
It's an interesting interview and I hope you enjoy it.
Jeffrey, welcome to the show.
Jeffrey Tiong (02:22.510)
Thank you.
Thanks, Almir, for the invitation.
Omer (02:25.950)
So, do you have a favorite quote?
Something that inspires or motivates you or just gets you out of bed to work on your business?
Jeffrey Tiong (02:33.470)
Yes.
If I will say there is one, it will be one by Henry Ford, which I read many years ago.
It goes by whether you think you can or you can't.
You are right.
Omer (02:46.870)
I love that.
And I was actually watching a documentary of Henry Ford last night on PBS and I think it's something that.
It's not software related, it's not tech related in many ways, but I think there's a lot of lessons for a Lot of entrepreneurs from people like him in history.
So for people who aren't familiar with patsnap, can you give us an overview?
What does the product do, who is it for and what's the main problem that you're helping to solve?
Jeffrey Tiong (03:18.710)
Yes, Pet Snap is a connected innovation intelligence platform designed to help our users to identify technological opportunities that could affect the future growth and survival of their business.
So nowadays it's hyper.
In a hyper competitive world, everyone is working on all sorts of ideas and every new idea, new product or invention that is intended for commercialization, we should actually vetted against existing technology and innovation area and our platform help our user, especially from the R&D Department and the IP Department, intellectual property department of an organization to do that.
On top of that, we also help them to understand the competitive landscape better from a technological standpoint.
For example, what their competitors was planning to launch in terms of new product, how their technology works, what kind of patterns they have in order to help our user to better position their product and also for risk mitigation.
So that is kind of what we do.
Omer (04:39.750)
And can you tell us about the types of customers that you have?
Like what type of companies, industries?
Jeffrey Tiong (04:46.790)
Yes, usually where there are a lot of R and D investment, those are where our potential customers are.
In terms of geography, it will be us, Europe and China.
China has been investing a lot in R and D recently, especially in the last 10 to 15 years.
In terms of industry, the few industries that invest a lot in R and D are the life science, healthcare, the automotive industry, manufacturing, electronics.
These are the few industries that heavily invested in RD and they will have a need for our type of tools.
In terms of companies type, it ranges from very small startup, a tech startup to a big conglomerate.
So as long as they have a need to invest in R and D, our tools will be of use to them.
Omer (05:44.570)
And typically what type of problems would these companies have?
So obviously R and D, if you're investing heavily in that there's a big investment, you want to make sure that your money is going in the right places.
But what exactly is the problem that they struggle with around?
Is it primarily around like patents and sort of IP type issues?
Jeffrey Tiong (06:09.300)
Not necessarily around.
IP will be one how to better product their ideas through patents or better IP protection.
But a lot of our customers also use our platform to identify technological change or opportunities.
For example, let's say we have a customer, it's a smart car, battery powered car.
In China, they are building a new car.
Essentially they want to know what type of battery that can last longer than any existing car battery on the market.
And they want to know how, for example, how Tesla car batteries technology work, how they make it.
So through our platform they can identify what are out there, what we call the existing prior art and it gives them inspiration or new ideas on how to do it better.
So that is one way of how our platform is being used as well to identify what is the latest technology being deployed on the market and give them inspiration or new idea on how to even do it better.
Omer (07:23.290)
Now I want to give people sort of a sense of the size of the business and where Patsnap is today.
You founded the company in 2007 and as of today 2020 you have around 8,000 customers, about 800 employees and you've raised, I think it's just over $51 million to date.
That's pretty good going for, I mean I didn't even know that there was a product solving this type of problem.
It's such a, seems like such a unique area where at the same time it seems a massive opportunity when you start thinking about how much money is going into R and D around the world.
How did you come up with the idea for this business?
Jeffrey Tiong (08:14.880)
Yes, when I was studying in Singapore in the National University of Singapore, there was a program quite, I would say forward thinking program where they sent entrepreneurial minded students to go overseas to work in a local startup and study part time in a local business school.
So I was actually sent to Philadelphia work because of my biomedical engineering background.
I was working in a local medical device startup in Philippi while at the same time studying in Wharton Business School in Upenn.
And that's kind of how I first got the idea of starting testnet.
And when I was there, when I joined the startup, I was the first employee and first intern.
Literally there were just two bosses and myself.
And because it is a medical device startup, patents and intellectual property was very key.
So during my years there I helped them to do a lot of patents due diligence to understand how the patent works.
And in fact they also have purchased some of the patents portfolio from another company company in California.
So that was really how I got my first exposure to patents and intellectual property.
And after that staying in US about one and a half year, I went back to Singapore, finished my my candidature and I was thinking what to do after graduation and I said why not give it a try and because I believe that there should be a better tool to do this type of work and I believe patents information are very Very useful just to give some context about the whole patent system.
The essence of why there is a patent system is the government give the inventor a 20 years of monopoly right for your invention.
In return, the inventor need to disclose everything about how their invention work so that everyone else can learn from that.
That is a deal.
It essentially is a commercial deal between the government and the inventor.
So literally the patent database we have contained more than 300 years worth of all invention under the sun that all the inventors have, at least for those who file with the patent system.
So this is a very valuable data source, but unfortunately, because it was written and drafted by the lawyer, the patent attorney, so it wasn't so easy to understand.
So my idea and vision back then is if we can decode this data source, this pattern database and make it as easy as possible, even a university student can understand how a technology works.
That will be really great.
So that was how I started testnet.
Omer (11:19.590)
Did you kind of imagine at the time when you sort of envisioned this business, how big it potentially could be?
Jeffrey Tiong (11:27.750)
Yes, to be frank, I didn't think at least it will be as big as what we see now or even down the road.
So naturally when I developed this product, my first customer in mind will be the lawyers, the IP attorneys and so on.
But because our product back then wasn't so robust, wasn't so mature in the very early days of packnet.
So we couldn't sell into this customer segment because from this audience they really have very high requirement on our product in terms of the data coverage, the data accuracy, the data completeness.
And somehow we try other market segments and we managed to sold to the R&D department of an organization.
And fortunately R&D department in the organization, they actually also have even better purchasing power, have better decision making, and they don't have as high requirement as the lawyer's counterpart.
And they also love the ease of use of our software.
Even though better back then, our data coverage wasn't as good as now, it's good enough for them at that point of time.
So we managed to start selling into the R and D segment of an organization.
And R and D is a huge market.
Globally every year $2 trillion of R&D spending and US is number one, about $500 billion and China comes at second, about $400 billion.
So this is a huge market.
And as of now, R and D spending is still not so efficient.
There was a study in HBR a couple years back that says that over the last 40 years, R&D productivity has dropped by 65%.
So you can imagine how much money is wasted in R and D in the $2 trillion.
So if we can help them to even move the needle a little bit, I think that will be that the market will be huge.
Omer (13:33.850)
So if I understood this correctly, you started out trying to sell to IP attorneys and then actually ended up with R and D customers because it was easier to sell to them, but that wasn't your initial target customer.
It just happened to be an easier path to sale.
Is that right?
Jeffrey Tiong (13:53.370)
Yes, yes.
Not necessarily easier, but it's still because we are still trying out our go to market.
But looking back, yes, the R and D segment, looking we chance upon it accidentally.
Omer (14:06.030)
So you started this business with $55,000.
Where did that money come from?
Jeffrey Tiong (14:14.910)
So very fortunately as well, back then in my alma mater, National Institute of Singapore, there was a program that encouraged and helped students who want to be entrepreneur and give them a startup student grant.
And there was a program, I participated, they gave me 55,000 sing dollar which is about 40,000 USD and also gave me an incubator space for me to start my business back then.
Omer (14:48.800)
And how did you spend the money?
What did you do with it?
Jeffrey Tiong (14:51.200)
I think back then we didn't have AWS cloud yet, so I spent I think maybe close to one third of it on servers.
So we actually have to buy our own servers on that and the rest is just spent on hiring because to hire even one programmer it already costs more than half of it.
Omer (15:15.010)
And how long did it take you to build the first version of that product?
Jeffrey Tiong (15:22.050)
It took us about two years, two to three years because obviously with 55,000 is not enough.
So we actually have to did some projects, the outsourced projects to keep the lights on.
So we did some project in other ways, get some other grant as well to fund the product development.
Because for our product on top of the servers, the development cost, we also need to purchase a lot of data sourced from around the world, from different government as well.
Because all these patents data, every country have their own patents data.
So we need to spend a lot of money to acquire this data set as well and to clean them up and to make them available on our product.
So it actually took us about two to three years before we launched our very crude first version of the product.
Omer (16:19.300)
In that time, in those first two to three years, how much were you talking to potential customers or trying to validate that this was actually something that once it shipped, people were going to give you money for?
Jeffrey Tiong (16:34.420)
Yes, looking back, I did Some research, but I will say I didn't do enough.
I think that space because I experienced it during my internship in US Back then there were actually tools out there already, but it was just very expensive to buy such tool from other provider on the market.
It cost about 100,000 a year just to use such tool to help power the search, to identify the landscape.
And the alternative are the free website on the market, make available by the government and the free website.
Obviously the feature set, the tools wasn't so powerful.
So my idea was to build something in between.
Something that is not so expensive, but something that can be widely available to everyone.
So with this, with my experience back in the US in an internship, I started this along the way.
The first two to three years I only spoke to a few prospects trying to pitch them the idea.
But because the product wasn't built, when I pitched them the idea, they will say yes, this is a good idea.
When your product ready, come talk to me.
The kind of feedback I got, I
Omer (17:55.940)
was talking to somebody the other day and he said they went into a bunker for two years to build a product before they went out and talked to customers and it worked out for them and it worked out for you.
But it's also a very high risk strategy to spend that much time and money over so many years not knowing with a high level of confidence that you have customers lined up.
These days we hear a lot of people talking about just the whole concept of MVP and just build enough and get it out there in front of customers as quickly as possible.
When you look back at those first few years, do you feel that you were trying to build too much into the product which is why it took two, three years to build it?
Or was it simply because the type of problem you were solving, you just didn't see any other way to build build the product faster?
Jeffrey Tiong (19:02.540)
Yes.
No, I definitely agree that nowadays to build a new product or even just to test a new market new idea, we should use the MVP approach or the lean startup approach.
In fact, now in Petsnap every year we still have new product development, new ideas we are testing out.
So we are now definitely doing that as well.
Just to build a quick prototype to test the market.
Looking back, definitely I think, I think I could have done more along this line mvp.
But back then it was so raw.
I was fresh out of grad and I was just thinking there is a problem and I want to solve this problem.
And also even now look back to build a prototype for our product.
I think it was hard because it required a lot of data source to make this product kind of come alive.
In terms of the concept, yes, we can build a mock up to show, hey, this is what the product can potentially do.
And back then we did that to show to prospect and that is all I did back then.
But I will say definitely MVP approach.
Yes.
In fact we are doing now and we could have done more back then on this approach.
Using this approach.
Omer (20:22.400)
So you finally ship the first version of the product.
How did you go about getting that first sale?
Jeffrey Tiong (20:32.100)
Yeah, my first sales was I think around, I would say around late 2009, early 2010, about two years after I started the business.
And it was to my alma meter actually if I remember correctly, I sold to our university library to purchase our tool because library universities is also one of the customer segment that purchase our type of tools for their students and professors to use.
And I just, I can't remember all the details but I guess I just hustle and just talk to the librarian.
I remember there was a very nice, kind lady, just give us a shot and say since you are graduated from NUS and you've been working on this and they give us a chance to sell them these two.
And even though back then I will have to say our product just wasn't that good.
I think that was my first deal.
Omer (21:36.390)
Okay, great.
How long did that take after you had shipped the product?
So this is kind of a couple
Jeffrey Tiong (21:43.670)
of weeks, months after I shipped the product?
I will say couple months.
A few months at least.
Yeah.
Great.
Omer (21:51.090)
So that's a good sign.
You've got your first customer.
And then let's talk about how you took that to the next level.
So these days we talk about the whole idea of like 10 unaffiliated customers and if you can get to that point, you've got a good idea and a potential business.
So how did you go about getting to those first 10 and was it still you going out and selling or did you have someone helping you do that?
Jeffrey Tiong (22:19.920)
Yes, in the early days because we started first out of Asia and we started with few sales.
So we meet with our customers with our prospect face to face.
And only in around 2012 I met my partner in London and his previous experience and background was inside sales, outbound sales where they can call up their customer and do a web demo.
And if the customer love it, then they will pay us and we will give them the login to the software.
So this is, I would say the key go to market strategy we use in the early days, maybe from 2012 even until now.
In fact, of course we now have different go to market, including inbound marketing, including all other strategies.
But in the early days, I think that what really helped us to propel our sales in the first few years was this inside sales strategy where my partner based out of London set up a team and we call our prospect and customer in US and in Europe from London, that is our key go to market.
In the early days, what was that
Omer (23:42.330)
initially like when you're reaching out to customers and trying to give them a demo, were people responsive?
Were they interested in seeing the demo or did that take some work for you to get your messaging and sales approach right?
And then once people saw the demo, you know, you mentioned, hey, you know, the first version wasn't very good.
Did customers see that or were they pretty happy with what the product did at the time?
Jeffrey Tiong (24:18.320)
Yes, yeah, in the, in the early days when our product still wasn't so mature, the whole demo journey, we actually have to be very, is very curated because a lot of things don't really work.
So when we do the demo to our customer, it's actually pre curated demo journey, if you can imagine.
Omer (24:42.300)
Just so things don't break.
Jeffrey Tiong (24:44.700)
Just so things don't break and we find things that highlight our product feature, like some visualization analysis, use certain keyword that we know it will work and just.
Omer (24:59.060)
And what was the response from customers?
Like, you know, as I said, were people like a lot of the times you can go out and reach out to people and people are either sort of lukewarm or they're like, yeah, now's not a good time or maybe later or we're good.
Or was this enough of a pain that you had picked that immediately most people wanted to get to a demo and find out what you were doing?
Jeffrey Tiong (25:21.820)
Yes, I would say when we chance upon the R and D market back then, the response was quite positive because a lot of them, they never seen this type of tool in their career, in their work before.
So to them this is quite innovative.
They are quite open for us to even just to book a demo to show them the tool.
And when they see the tool, because we have good visualization to show, for example, how the pattern landscape is, they all were impressed by it.
And they actually also have a need because R and D investment, they need to understand where the direction is, where the market is, what their companies are doing.
And there wasn't any really user friendly tool for R and D, at least back then.
So I would say the response when we charged upon the R and D market, the response was quite positive overall.
Omer (26:14.360)
Okay, great.
So the demos go well.
You, you've got sort of the inside sales.
It sounds like it's starting to work.
What about the customer onboarding experience?
If you've got a product, which you have to kind of have that very curated demo experience, how did that reality play out when real customers started using the product?
Jeffrey Tiong (26:42.240)
Yes, so in the early days, definitely when after we sold our products, we got a lot of feedback and sometimes complain from the customer on, hey, how come this is not working?
How come that is not working?
And I remember there was a stressful time as well.
Yes, we managed to get ourselves, but then we also need to make sure customer want to continue use it and continue to renew the software.
Because for us, subscription revenue is key, retention rate is key.
So in the early days we also, at the same time, while we're selling the product, we have to really also quickly improve our product in many different way.
I would say it took us about two years as well, at least another two years plus to kind of make our product is really good enough for most of the scenario.
And also we will identify customer that will be best suited for this type of scenario and let them use it.
So there was some early days experience.
Omer (27:45.970)
Okay, so when you said identify customers for that type of scenario, tell me what you mean by that.
Jeffrey Tiong (27:51.490)
Yeah, as I mentioned in the early days we tried to sell to the IP department, the legal department.
First of all, we would try to avoid selling to the department because that is a very high requirement department.
So our product wasn't exactly the best fit to them, even though sometimes we may be able still to sell to them.
But that wasn't the best fit.
And for R and D that was a much better fit.
But even within the R and D, different industry, also different, for example, selling into a life science company as compared to manufacturing, as compared to maybe a consumer good.
So we will also identify some segments, some vertical segment industry, that our product is a better fit for them.
So we try to kind of narrow down or to be more specific with our target audience back then and to sell to this target audience as much as possible.
Omer (28:48.560)
You know, sometimes with startups and founders, there's a reluctance to get the product too early in front of customers.
And some of it is, you know, it's kind of like it's our baby and we don't want people to tell us that our baby is ugly and all that stuff.
But also I think there's this fear that if my customers, my early adopters, don't have a good experience, then that's going to damage my reputation.
The product won't have credibility, the company won't have credibility.
And it sounds like you are dealing with those types of issues where you got the product out there, you've got people using it, it's doing the job because otherwise people wouldn't have kept paying you for it.
But there's also potentially a customer churn issue.
There's a customer satisfaction issue where people are telling you about what's missing or some people are complaining about that.
What would you say to people who maybe are sort of stuck in that situation today and know that they need to get the product in front of customers but are scared for those same reasons?
Jeffrey Tiong (30:08.620)
Yes, I can totally empathize with that.
That is true.
You treat your product as your baby because you spend so much time on it.
And I will say, given chance, I definitely would like to promote the product sooner than back then.
And it's key.
I think this reminded me of also a book I read by Geoffrey Moore, Crossing the Chasm.
I think in the Crossing the Chasm model there are early adopters, late adopters and so on.
And it's really key to find the early adopters for us back then if we use this framework, the R and D and some of them even very visionary R and D thought leader, they were our early adopters because R and D, fortunately for us, R and D by nature, their work is very forefront.
They're willing to take a chance on us.
So even though our product sometimes we told them, hey, it's still not very robust and complete, but they're willing to give us a chance for that.
So I think having identified the early adopters, those who are very passionate about new technologies and willing to give it a try, I think is key for identify the first group of customer who will be willing to pay for your product even though your product may not be mature yet.
Omer (31:34.670)
Yeah, I think that's a great lesson.
And I think Geoffrey Moore's book, even though it's what, like 30 odd years old now, it's still so relevant in so many ways.
And the way you just described it.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of the times we think about segmenting the market the way you did and finding the R and D customers, but then as you said, you can segment within that.
And probably there are R and D groups that are early adopters and there are R and D groups that are probably, you know, would be defined as the laggards in that industry.
And if your product is in the early stages, the early adopters are going to be more comfortable using that product, even if it's not perfect.
They're going to be more forgiving if the product fails now and then.
Whereas somebody who is a laggard in that industry or that micro segment or whatever you like to say, they're not going to put up with that and they're probably going to get a lot more upset about it.
So I think there's just a really good lesson there that even once you've identified your target market and customers within that in the early stages, finding those early adopters within that market is super important.
Jeffrey Tiong (32:49.620)
Yes, totally agree.
Omer (32:52.020)
So you did the inside sales and it sounds like that was basically the main way that you grew the business.
At what point did you start looking at other things like inbound marketing?
Jeffrey Tiong (33:08.180)
I will say yeah, quite late into our journey.
I would say we start having our marketing department maybe around 2016, 17 to start build our marketing function, to have demand generation inbound marketing.
It was quite late at our journey.
Omer (33:27.960)
So inside sales was pretty much the driver of customer acquisition and growth for the first six, seven years.
Jeffrey Tiong (33:38.680)
I will say at least first four to five years.
Yeah.
Omer (33:43.880)
Okay, so let's talk a little bit about your experience going through building this business because we sort of explained to people where you were in terms of size of the business and customers and 800 employees and then that you've raised over $51 million.
But the thing that we didn't explicitly sort of talk about was that not only is patsnap your first startup, it was basically your first job out of college.
And so everything you've learned about jobs and business really, it's come from the experience of this idea that you had and you decided to go out and build.
So tell me a little bit about some of the challenges that you've experienced by having had to not had any sort of other experience or frame of reference before you went into building this business.
Jeffrey Tiong (34:50.280)
Yes.
Yeah, looking back, it was really tough, very tough.
Because I started testnet fresh out of college.
I didn't have any context on in the working world, how to even recruit, how to build a customer and many things else, how to build a sales team.
So I really didn't have much context and that was why even up until now still make a lot of mistake, still learn a lot every single day.
I see that entrepreneurship is definitely a self learning, understanding yourself better and along the way is a very condensed, intense learning journey as well.
At least this is how I view my journey so far.
Omer (35:39.240)
When we were talking earlier, you said that some of the challenges for you in the early days was having a lack of confidence or conviction.
How did that sort of play out or manifest itself in terms of the way you were running the business or some of the difficulties that created?
Jeffrey Tiong (36:01.140)
Yes, because I guess all these add to it because this was my first experience, first startup, first working experience.
So I didn't have a lot of context.
Therefore in the early days I think I lack of that confidence or conviction how to run a business, where the business should go.
So that was part of it and also the other part of it is also my.
I was still figuring out my leadership style and I still do every day how to improve my leadership style.
But back then I will be quite straightforward or direct with my team in terms of my thinking.
Be it in a good day or bad day, in a good mood or bad mood, I think I will just share everything with the team.
And that wasn't so good sometimes because in the early days, especially when I'm not in a good day most of the time because was quite tough those days.
So actually impact the morale and also affect their confidence as well.
I think there was one time where I think with my angel investor back then we went around the world try to pitch for our idea for our first series A funding and I remember we go around the world and spend I think one, two months time and didn't make any headway.
And we were back to our office and I couldn't remember what exactly was the agenda, but somehow we had a heated debate, kind of a heated argument and he told me that hey Jeff, you are not fit to be a CEO.
I was quite disappointed back then.
This comment came from him, someone I respected a lot.
And it's true, I think because he said that hey Jeff, when you talk to investor, when you pitch to investor or even talking to your team, you always put your face on your sleeve.
You are not confident even in your own idea.
You should appear that you know better than everyone on the table.
So I was back then I just couldn't comprehend it because a lot of things were still very uncertain.
Yes, we were making some progress, we are making some revenue.
Our product is still continuing to become better every day.
But this is back then I just don't have the full context or can't see very clearly where the company is going.
Clearly crystal clear.
So that was why I didn't appear as confident or as much commission as I should have.
So I couldn't recall a specific moment when this changed.
But I think it just takes another couple months, one, two years.
Slowly I realized that hey, actually this is my style as well.
I'm more maybe I will call it authentic style where I will just say it how it is to the people.
And this actually have this benefit that this usually actually help create the trust better as well between me and anyone I meet.
Of course there's still other side there that I need to improve.
I shouldn't always show my concern in front of them.
Sometimes I just have to deal with it myself, have to think through it and then let them know what I believe is the direction.
I think over the years as well as more things happen, more I would say more weight on the belt.
I think it's, it helped me also give me more confidence.
I think overall that was the journey I had in terms of my personal leadership development.
Omer (39:43.470)
Yeah, leadership is a tough game.
Jeffrey Tiong (39:45.790)
Right.
Omer (39:46.190)
And from my personal experience and having spent many years at Microsoft, people want to be, they want to be involved, they want to know what's going on.
They want, you know, as much transparency to feel like, you know, then they can have the confidence and they're not going to have any surprises around the corner and they can be successful at their roles but they don't necessarily want all the shit that you as a leader are having to deal with.
Jeffrey Tiong (40:19.110)
Right.
Omer (40:19.390)
And that's the tough thing that I personally experienced as well is like how much of that do you filter out and how much do you share with people?
And sometimes I've made those mistakes where I kind of was too open with some people trying to be completely transparent and people telling me that was the most demoralizing all hands I've ever been to.
And I was like great, I'm not going to talk about that again.
It's a really tough kind of balancing act I think to know that.
But I think that the important thing here is that you had that self awareness and I think it starts there from understanding what you, you're doing, what you feel you know you do well, where you need to improve and then, and then having that awareness to sort of understand how, how people are perceiving your leadership style and communication.
Jeffrey Tiong (41:12.820)
Yeah, no, I think you pointed out a very key concept, the self awareness.
I think there's no, at least this is my own experience and also all the years talk to other entrepreneurs as well.
There's no one right type of leadership style.
I think it came in different form.
I see many different style of leadership works as well.
And as you mentioned in different contexts dealing with different people it is different as well.
But I think the self awareness is the first step.
I find that it is very key.
At least you are aware that in this context, in this scenario, it doesn't work so well.
So next time just have to try something different.
I think the self awareness to be able to know that hey, this is not working, that one seems working well and have the courage to face it and see how I can do better next time.
I think that that is the key.
Omer (42:08.930)
Yeah, I agree with you.
And I think even today there are still leadership challenges for you.
You were telling me that now it's a different set of challenges as you're bringing in sort of more mature senior leaders into the organization.
Tell us about how the challenges for you have sort of changed now.
Jeffrey Tiong (42:37.010)
Yes.
So as the organization grow from in the early days 5% to 50 to 200 and now we are at about 800 people, I realized that my leadership style has to change accordingly as well.
Back in the early days when the team is small, 10, 20 people, I can easily just grab everyone out for lunch, for a meal and then just talk to them, get to know everyone better.
But now at the current size of the business, that wasn't possible anymore.
One thing, especially the last few years, as we grow our business globally in different region, that also added a lot more complexity because different places, the culture is very different as well.
For example, my team in Asia, as compared to in London, as compared to even in Toronto, in North America, in la, the culture was quite different.
So how do I work with them to still be under one roof, under one pest net culture that was actually not easy.
Also we had to build and grow our leadership team.
So in the early days was just myself and my few founding partners.
And along the way, as most of us we have all together, including myself, four of us, the founding team, three of us, this is the first time, first proper job for us fresh out of college.
So all of us were very raw and inexperienced as well.
And along the way we also have more senior, experienced, seasoned professional to join the leadership team and how that transition being done.
How do I make sure the seasoned professional they can have their expertise and gel well with our early.
I call it the founding team DNA that was also very crucial and I actually call it, we have zero to one, the founding team, zero to one kind of experience.
They are very innovative, entrepreneurial and they can start from nothing and build nothing to something with a lot of uncertainty.
I think the founding team and the early employees are good at that.
While we also need now that the company has scale.
We also need another type of people who are very good at managing the day to day, who is very good at scaling up the operation, bringing it from one, I call it from one to 10.
So this is also, I find it's a very different skill set as compared to the early days.
0 to 1 and how we gel the 0 to 1 type of people and 1 to 10,000 people together.
And we need both, even though at our size, because we still need innovation, we still need new ideas.
So that is what some of the, some of the lesson I learned in the last two, three years.
Omer (45:34.140)
You know, we often hear people talk about you can't succeed unless you have a co founder and you're a solo founder.
And you know, from what I can see, you've done pretty, pretty well.
What advice would you give to somebody who maybe is in that situation, who either hasn't been able to find the right co founder or maybe for whatever reason feels like this is a journey that at this point they need to take on their own?
What were some of the biggest challenges for you being that single founder?
And what advice would you give somebody in that situation?
Jeffrey Tiong (46:13.200)
Yes, being a solo founder is definitely, definitely tough.
I would say anyone in this position or as the ultimate leader of an organization, I can really empathize with this.
It's not easy because end of the day, someone has to make the final decision for the organization.
And this is not easy because you have to bear the consequences and you have to make sure you are making the right decision for your whole organization, for all your stakeholders, including your shareholder, your investor, all your employees, everyone.
So definitely there are many times there were kind of lonely times where I feel like I'm on a mountain at the top of the mountain they are calling, blowing at you.
And it's lonely.
I'm fortunate that in the early days I have founding team members.
My partners now have been with me for more than 10 years.
And many times we also share, I call it, share the laughter and the joy and the tears together along the journey because we actually argue, we debate, we fight.
But end of the day, I think it's, it's good that we actually still share the journey together and talk about things together.
End of the day, yes, I have to make the decision.
But having a strong team, a good team, good partners is the way, it is the way to build an organization, to scale an organization.
And also, only through a strong team, you can achieve greater things.
Because with yourself alone, you are nothing.
So that is kind of my, my Reflection on my journey so far.
Omer (48:01.450)
Yeah.
And I think even if you, if you have a co.
Founder or co founders, you know all the better.
If you don't, then I think it's.
Do you have a good support network and partners or people that you can, you can at least.
How did you put it?
Share the laughter, joy and tears.
I think that's a beautiful way to put it.
Love that.
Jeffrey Tiong (48:26.180)
Yes.
Yes.
Omer (48:27.500)
All right, we should wrap up.
Jeff.
So I'm gonna go into the lightning round.
I've got seven quick fire questions for you.
So are you ready to go?
Jeffrey Tiong (48:37.620)
Yeah, sure.
Omer (48:38.740)
Okay.
What's the best piece of business advice you've ever received?
Jeffrey Tiong (48:43.700)
Think someone in the early days, there's one someone told before that if anything you see on the news is already too late.
I thought that was quite true.
If you see that there are a lot of people, let's say talking about, let's say blockchain, talking about AI, by then it is too late for you to work on.
By definition, if you are looking at something innovative and new, others don't know about it yet.
So I think sometimes just be confident at what you are working on and don't try to jump on what is hot at the moment.
Omer (49:20.470)
Yeah.
What book would you recommend to our audience and why?
Jeffrey Tiong (49:24.870)
There was a book called Hard Thing about Hard Things by Ben Horowitz.
Tore my head.
Yeah, yeah.
Great book.
Omer (49:32.390)
What's one attribute or characteristic in your mind of a successful founder?
Jeffrey Tiong (49:37.430)
Yeah, there are many, many dimension to it.
I think one thing is to be persistent, to be diligent and I think just need some luck for successful entrepreneur.
Omer (49:49.220)
What's your favorite personal productivity tool or habit?
Jeffrey Tiong (49:52.980)
I like to go jogging whenever I feel just need some refreshment of my mind because after giving out sweat and exercise I feel, I feel better and I can think better.
Omer (50:06.410)
What's a new or crazy business idea you'd love to pursue if you had the extra time and hasn't been talked about on the news?
Jeffrey Tiong (50:13.610)
No, I actually Elon Musk is really a good role model if I have a chance.
Maybe something related to space exploration or maybe deep sea diving exploration as well.
Omer (50:27.690)
What's an interesting or fun fact about you that most people don't know?
Jeffrey Tiong (50:31.210)
I guess maybe people see that I'm running an 800 person organization from the outside.
I think maybe sometimes it's hard for them to think I'm actually an introvert.
I actually like spending time alone.
But of course over the years I met more founders and CEO who are also introvert.
But at Least for me.
I'm more introvert type.
Omer (50:53.370)
Yeah, me too.
I like connecting with people.
I love these conversations we're having.
But for me to recharge, I got to have plenty of time alone in solitude.
What's one of your most important passions outside of your work?
Jeffrey Tiong (51:09.700)
Unfortunately, as a founder, I think all my time is about building a business.
I would say outside of that, I would like to spend time with my kids, watch some movies, read some books, do some exercise.
That is what I do outside of my work.
Omer (51:27.470)
Awesome.
Jeff, thank you so much for joining me.
It's been a pleasure.
Patsnap is an area or a problem space that I had absolutely no knowledge about, and it's just been fascinating to learn more about the opportunities here and then also kind of following the journey of you from that internship and seeing how much of a pain this was to building this business over the last 13 years.
So really enjoyed the conversation.
If people want to find out more about Pat Snap, they can go to patsnap.com and if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Jeffrey Tiong (52:07.560)
They can just reach.
Reach out to me on LinkedIn or send an email to me@jtiongat snap.com awesome.
Omer (52:15.960)
Thank you so much.
I wish you all the best.
And thank you for waking up early in Shanghai to chat with me today.
Jeffrey Tiong (52:22.120)
No problem.
Thank you.
Thank you for the opportunity.
Yeah.
Have a good weekend ahead.
Omer (52:26.160)
Cheers.
Jeffrey Tiong (52:26.560)
Thank you.
Easy.
Thank you.
