Omer (00:09.760)
Welcome to another episode of the SaaS Podcast.
I'm your host, Omer Khan, and this is a show where I interview proven founders and industry experts who share their stories, strategies, and insights to help you build, launch, and grow your SaaS business.
In this episode, I talk to Brett Turner, the founder and CEO of Truvada, a SaaS fintech company that offers automated cash management and forecasting solutions for businesses.
In 2016, Brett, already a seasoned entrepreneur with three successful startup exits, launched a new endeavor, Truvada.
But this wasn't just another startup for him.
It was an idea that had been brewing for 20 years.
Launching a SaaS product in the enterprise space can be very challenging.
So Brett actually spent two years in the discovery phase talking to as many potential customers as he could.
It was a long time, but he feels it was worth it.
However, one major obstacle stood in Brett's way.
To deliver a successful product, he needed to integrate with banks.
However, back then, Most didn't have APIs, so he made a huge bet he was going to start building the product and investing in the business with the hope that the banks would eventually start providing APIs.
If they didn't, he was screwed.
The banks did eventually introduce APIs, but Brett had to wait over two years.
And during that time, pressure was growing as he was burning through cash.
Thanks to that bet, though, Truvada has grown into a business that's currently doing around 10 million in ARR and has raised over $58 million.
In this episode, you'll learn what Brett did during the discovery phase to deeply understand customer problems and why he spent over two years doing that.
We'll talk about how Brett recommends approaching the enterprise space and the right way to build an MVP for enterprise customers.
We also talk about how Brett's calculated risk on bank APIs paid off and what lessons other founders can learn from this.
And we talk about Brett's advice for founders who are looking to bring innovation to traditional corporate spaces.
So I hope you enjoy.
All right, Brett, welcome to the show.
Brett Turner (02:17.380)
Yeah, great to be on with Yomur.
Omer (02:19.460)
Do you have a favorite quote, something that inspires or motivates you that you can share with us?
Brett Turner (02:23.540)
I would say there's.
There's no shortcuts in building a great company.
That's maybe the one thing with all the gray hair there that, that I've learned.
No matter how many times you do it, it's hard every time.
And you got to.
There's only one way to sort of build it, right?
So no shortcuts.
Omer (02:39.540)
So tell us about Truvada.
What does the product do, who's it for and what's the main problem you're helping to solve?
Brett Turner (02:45.740)
Yeah, so Truvada is if you think of online banking or just managing your cash, that's generally done by spreadsheets.
Today it's all of your cash flow or cash workflows are done in spreadsheets or models and all of that.
So we basically online banking is kind of born out of the 90s.
The bank should be helping bring a product for managing cash and we're filling that void because they're not tech companies, we are.
So really if you think of like in the consumer side, if it's like a mint for corporates but then on steroids, lots of other data driven aspects of automating cash flows, bringing your cash visibility, forecasting, analytics, all of your underlying cash flows for your business, we help companies and big companies manage that really, really well with a lot of automation.
Omer (03:36.350)
So you founded Truvada in 2016.
Where did the idea come from?
Brett Turner (03:42.510)
Yeah, I think a lot of it was, yeah, there was no like, hey, I got this epiphany.
Just, you know, lightning struck.
It was really something all along.
It was, I'd say it's kind of that 20 years in the making for me.
And I'd been in Star so kind of tracking the early three, then Amazon and three more and then it was like, okay, I've got, I've got one more left.
The thesis was so big because what was happening was after on the heels of Second Watch and that whole digital transformation in it we always talked about in the later innings of the journey to the cloud is going to be more in finance and banking and digital transformation.
There, there was no shortage of opportunity to innovate.
And this whole seeing what was happening with Plaid on the consumer side and in the early fintech, more consumer and small business, it's like my experience is more on where I've had success is more on the enterprise startup side.
So knowing that side and when you track all that, everything that hits consumer generally it works its way into the enterprise about five to seven years later.
And it's like for me why I kept getting more and more excited about this is this like I have to do this like this.
I'm perfectly wired from the startup world in finance, seeing all these pieces like this is going to be.
So for me it was a bit of the, maybe the kind of the last, last big hurrah for me and, but also the one that I was most Excited about that.
I just got more and more excited leaning in, but doing a lot of discovery and really spending a lot of time building out a thesis was probably a couple of years even prior to starting the company.
Omer (05:20.430)
So let's talk about that because you've spotted an opportunity and this is something that you've probably been seeing over and over again in the various roles and the startups that you've been working with.
You're starting to build this vision of what this company and this new product could be.
How long did it take for you to build the product?
Now you talked about discovery taking a long time.
What exactly was involved?
Were you just going out and just trying to have as many conversations as possible?
Was it just you?
Did you have anybody helping you at the time?
Brett Turner (05:56.000)
A lot of this was, you know, when you're kind of further along, you know, in your, you know, where I was at in life, it's just, it's harder to take these kinds of risks.
And so for me it was like.
And then also you, you at this point it's like I've done enough.
I've learned a lot from the mistakes or mistakes of others or all the mentoring.
It gets to a point like where you kind of priding yourself on not being wrong.
I can't be wrong on this.
So therefore, you know, I had a little more of the luxury of time to kind of think about it.
And so with that spent a lot of time just formulating, looking at the go to market.
A lot of these things I've learned like you got to be right on these because if you're wrong, you're going to have to.
This is why companies will go through maybe a multiple pivots or different things.
I can't be deciding and going through this on the fly.
Not saying we're not going to make mistakes, but I want to make really the risk about this around execution risk as much as I possibly can.
And so I really wanted to think through this.
And so yeah, that early on obviously in finance and CFO have raised a fair amount of money, a little over 100 million across those three startups.
So I had a lot of VCs that I pitched to over the years.
So made a trip down to Sand Hill Road and kind of did a little bit of a mini.
We didn't have a company yet, but just sort of pitching the idea and there was lots of VCs.
Sometimes though some won't do this, but some will.
I mean they generally want to help and so had some folks that would want to listen and kind of hear the pitch and I'm kind of doing the pitch as if we have something but I really wanted to see and being obviously transparent about that, but they kind of want to see, okay, what do you got cooked up?
I kind of see what you've done and if you think this is interesting, maybe we'll think this is interesting.
So getting feedback was huge.
And then not just feedback even though sure, I've been doing this for a long time but there's other aspects like on the treasury side, really large companies.
I hadn't met a Treasury yet and so even though I'd spent, worked with treasury teams in the past like at Amazon and started asking people that are friends that were treasurers and the longtime treasurer of Amazon, Jason Bristow was kind of an early pseudo advisor and he introduced me to the treasure of square, Tim Murphy.
And Tim and I had a little bit of overlap at Amazon but didn't really know each other.
But Jason was instrumental and he's like, oh, you remember Tim, right?
And it's like kind of.
And so he reconnected us and again I gave a two sentence elevator pitch to Tim and he's like, I'm in.
And then because of the other solution, like the treasury solution they were using and he's like, yeah, because that company sucks.
I want to help you because somebody needs to do it and somebody needs to innovate and somebody needs to do this differently because no innovation has really come to the space in 20 years.
So all those things were part of it.
But it wasn't just trying not to rely on, on one hand, you know, that you can craft things in a certain way.
It's up to you to really craft that in a way that, and you have to be innovative about that of what maybe the market needs and you see that and that's important.
But there's other aspect of where you're just testing that and getting feedback and, and really testing your thesis, you know, and that's hard because you're getting a lot of, you know, everybody's pin cushioning, you know, your ideas and all these kind of things.
But it's, it's crucial because it's really that refiners fire that's really seeing that if withstands all that then it's really worth and worthy pursuing.
Omer (09:39.140)
Do you think going through that process and having those conversations, whether it was with, you know, VCs or treasurers or whatever would have been much harder if you didn't have a track record of already having had three successful exits.
Like, if somebody else was trying to do that today and they didn't have that background, It's a good question.
Brett Turner (10:01.360)
I think it definitely helped me for sure.
I mean, there's a little bit of aspect of I could call people, I have a network and they're going to take my call, things like that.
But I've seen it also.
I had, in the very early going, I had.
I had met this guy to kind of help do some cold calling and outreach.
And he was cleverly leveraging his connections at the college he graduated from.
He's like, hey, I graduated from this college.
I see you're an alum.
I'd really like to ask you about this because I'm learning too.
And it was all true to start conversations.
And so they were opening the doors, they would take that call.
And there are some of those folks that wouldn't have taken my call that they took.
They took his.
So I think nowadays, in day and age, there's so many folks who are interested in the innovation economy and they're so.
And they get energized by it.
And so I think there's.
Yeah, it may have helped.
But I think also if you work at it and you kind of leverage what, you know, you'd be surprised.
There's a lot of folks who, and there's a lot of VCs, too, that even will lean in.
They're trying to.
There's a lot of introductions, people that, you know, that you can kind of get leveraged to kind of get your foot in the door.
I think part of that is just classic, sort of American, you know, dream entrepreneurial.
You gotta, you gotta work at it.
Omer (11:25.200)
Right?
Brett Turner (11:25.400)
Everybody's gotta, gotta, you know, put in the work, put in the time to open those doors, and it might be a little easier, but it's not easy.
Omer (11:34.600)
Yeah, I think ultimately, you know, whether you have a.
A background or a track record or credibility to lean on, it's really about whoever you reach out to, is it relevant what you're talking to them about?
And is it a problem or an opportunity that they care about?
And if you can nail those two, then I think it becomes easier for them to pay attention.
Whereas a lot of the times, if you're just talking to the wrong icp, telling them about a problem that or a great opportunity, they don't really give a crap because it's not something that's relevant to them.
Brett Turner (12:08.210)
So, no, it's a great point.
And I think that's why you have to.
You have to Keep digging.
I learned from a mentor of mine, which helped, because sometimes I would be a little bit too dismissive if there was a meeting or a possible a call to have.
And it's like, this is going to be a waste of time.
And he's like, no, let's do it.
So you turn over every rock you can.
It's harder, but you don't want to miss anything.
And I think we're, you know, especially.
It's so easy.
And you're also tired and you're fatigued.
Got a million things to do, but you just kind of have to force yourself to turn over more of those rocks, especially in the early stages.
And you'd be surprised.
There was times and when I learned this that I would admit, like, after the call, I'm like, yeah, I had no idea that was an amazing call.
And I would have just wrote it off and not even had the call.
But because in some ways, I was kind of forced to do it at the end.
It's kind of, you know, because you realize, yeah, give it a shot.
And then all of a sudden, I never would have experienced that if I would have written that off sooner.
So mentor mine said, yeah, you're going to.
You're going to kiss a lot of frogs on this journey.
Omer (13:13.530)
I think that's great advice.
You know, like, we'll do the lightning round later.
And I always ask founders about, you know, what's the scalable attribute of a successful founder and, you know, resilience and grit and.
Is something I hear over and over again.
What I don't hear as much, but I think is just as important.
And what you just described is curiosity, like being curious enough to explore things that maybe you would be otherwise quick to dismiss.
And if you.
If you do that, yeah, maybe it can be a waste of time.
Maybe it can take up a lot of your time, but it can also open up some really interesting things that maybe you hadn't thought about before.
Brett Turner (13:53.200)
Absolutely.
I think part of it is.
I think a lot of folks will.
And we've all experienced this.
You're sitting maybe in a meeting and somebody's explaining something, and everybody's nodding their heads like, we got it.
And then, you know, who's the one who has stops and said, do we got it?
Do we really got it?
Because, I mean, yeah, I think I'm 80%.
I understand it, but, like, how does that actually walk me through?
Exactly.
Like a kindergarten, so to speak.
Like, connect the dots.
And I think sometimes there's a little bit of that brass Tax of just literally taking those steps to actually do that.
I have to do this, then this, and then this.
And if you can't do that, then it's like you can talk about one of those and like, oh, yeah, yeah, yada, yada, yada, yada.
No, no, there's no, there's none of that here.
Like, you have to know.
You have to know that when you're going to put your foot down, it's going to be on solid ground.
You can't be, you know, talking about something that doesn't exist.
And that's you.
You have to be really maniacal in that.
It's about details.
You have to ask those questions.
Don't gloss over some of those.
If you don't, they'll come back to buy you.
Omer (14:57.370)
Let's talk about the product.
I want to just walk me through, like, how you went about building that.
Now, you know, we often talk about, hey, you know, building, you know, an mvp.
And in, in many situations that's not that difficult to do.
I think with a product like Truvada, it seems to me that it doesn't really work unless you have some banks on the other end of that integrated with your product.
So did you build an mvp, and if so, how?
Or did you just kind of go all in and say, we just need to build this thing and we need to get some integrations done before this thing is even something that people consider.
Brett Turner (15:35.230)
It's a little bit of both.
I mean, I think in this day and age too, you can't.
And I think it's extra hard to build something in the enterprise because there's a certain rigor, resiliency, or robustness.
There's a feature set.
There's all these things that are just harder to do.
It just takes longer, takes more capital, which all of a sudden becomes an access restriction.
Because, you know, seed investors might only want to, you know, max you're going to get maybe is 3 to 5 million.
It's rare to see like a really big seed round unless there's some connection maybe to the VC firm or things like that.
But so you kind of have to stage your way into it.
I would use the term license to hunt all the time.
In the early going, it's like, hey, it'd be nice if we had luxury of just home running it.
But one that's not necessarily good either.
Because if you're building a field of dreams and then hope that everybody's going to show up and buy in that way, and it takes you 18 months and you're wrong, you're screwed, because you can't undo all that.
It's all about capital, efficiency, proving your way and then forcing yourself to own and stick to that same rigor as well.
You got to have these proof points and these milestones and your investors need to see that too.
I think that's a big part of the mvp, why it's so good.
But in the enterprise world, you've got to have a little bit more to that than the consumer space, where almost like you build a very simple app can get you a long ways and the enterprise has got to be a little more of a product that becomes harder.
But yeah, we did the early journey and part of what did have a bit of a wrinkle was that if this is all going to be automation, we're going to build this whole new experience to manage cash and it's going to be about automating workflows, like doing real work for accounting teams, finance teams, treasury teams.
If you're going to do that, it's got to be data driven.
And then if you're going to get it's data driven, well, where are you going to get the data?
Well, in this case, we're going to start with the banks.
We're not going to the ERP system.
And there's a big reason for that.
My background is more in that, but I also learned that at after post Amazon, at this company, Worldwide Packets, and that's as a finance person, to map more of the cash journey, which the treasury folks kind of live in that all day long.
But more from a cash flow, from a CFO perspective, where cash as an operating tool.
And so that was sort of the backdrop.
So if it's going to be based on kind of bank transactions, bank data, cash first, we're obviously going to need that data from the banks.
And how are we going to do that?
Well, you have at the time, screen scraping and the plaids, the aggregators on the small business side, and even them today, aren't necessarily meant to aggregate transactions to power solution like ours.
So it's like, how are we going to get the data?
In the world of treasury that's 25 to 45 years old, it's all predicated on files, files that either come from the bank or come from Swift, which is a bank consortium, international consortium of that.
And there are these very rigid standard formats to get a small amount of information, but it's precise and based on a defined, standardized format every single time.
So you can build some repeatability on it, but it's limited and it takes forever to connect initially.
So the implementation side is just horrendous.
There's companies that will have lots and lots of banks and they'll spend two, three years and still haven't connected all their banks.
It's like, wow, how does that.
But that's that world.
So for us, the thing for me was that I was kind of taking the bet.
That became a little bit of a blessing as well as a curse in some ways.
Maybe that's too harsh of a term, but the aspect of we can turn it into a positive, we're going to build this experience and that's what we're prototyping.
And as an entrepreneur, I'm going to take the risk that the banks are going to open up on the corporate side and they're going to roll out APIs.
And everything that I was seeing is sort of the theater that was the fintech on the consumer small business side where the banks were just hated screen scraping and they're kind of backdooring to get the data and it's like, okay, the banks are going to have to do this because the demand is there, customers need it, and so they kind of get a chance to do it over and, and do it securely and on their own terms.
And so for me, it was like the banks have to build APIs.
That was a big part of the core thesis and if they don't, I'm screwed.
So it was sort of building and that was the full two, two and a half years early on of really building this and then working with the banks.
And then they did.
That's when they released the first corporate banks in the world.
JP Morgan, Wells Fargo and Bank of America released APIs for balances initially and then later transactions.
Shortly after, we were the first company to connect again.
Two years is still a long time before.
That was hard because it actually was a lot longer than I had hoped and expected.
It was getting to where it's like this is getting out there in terms of even risk for me because I'm, I'm, I'm all in on it and I'm starting to start to hit the wall bit too.
So I think part of that is once the, the banks open up, we were the first connect.
And then the banks are like thinking it was going to be their customers that were connecting and customers don't want to connect because these are really hard APIs.
So we became a bridging aspect.
The banks realizing, hey, we kind of need Truvada.
They saw what we were building and what the data was going to be for.
That kind of became an early on, that was what I was hoping would sort of turn into our flywheel because we not only needed the data from the banks, but if the banks could just see what we're using their data for and we're solving all these pain points from a user perspective through the platform for their customers, like, we're doing a lot of what they should be doing, but they're not, they're not tech companies, then the banks will get behind it.
And indeed they did.
And that's where once they saw, they're like, hey, we got.
And the other thing is that we brought their customers to them.
We weren't asking for any handouts.
We're showing up.
And they were kind of used to that.
They're like, okay, what do I got to do?
You want me to connect you with some of our customers?
Like, no, no, no.
Square is a big customer of yours.
And the treasurer, Tim, he's asking us on their behalf to connect to the API.
And we're like, oh, really?
And then we were bringing in real credible customers to the bank, which is honestly helping the bank validate their whole API thesis, which at that time was very.
Being challenged within the big banks.
So that helped them, it helped us, and then it become a bit of our flywheel because once they could see that these cost these companies, why were they doing this?
Because they really want this experience at that time, an mvp, but where this was going.
And so that's when the banks are like, well, we have a lot of other customers that are going to want the same thing.
And kind of back to your early question is like, you know, again, cash is so prevalent with every company, regardless of, you know, industry.
And that's, that's just where it became the bank was seeing that.
And then the bank started investing in Trvada, you know, JP Morgan, after some of these kind of these cool world firsts that we were doing.
And, you know, then J.P. morgan became our very first institutional investor.
That also was, you know, kind of part of the early journey and early learnings as well.
Omer (23:08.630)
That was a lucky break.
That just took a few years for you to.
Brett Turner (23:12.630)
Yeah, I had another mentor early on.
He was really successful entrepreneur at a company that built up, took public and he's like entrepreneur of the year and he's based in Toronto and Canada or something.
He just had a real track record.
And he said when he took this company public, one of the kind of junior investment bankers on the Team, when they were kind of going through the roadshow, looked at him and said, man, you guys, you guys just came out of nowhere.
And he's like, yeah, just a, just a 12 year overnight success story.
And I think that's, it's so much of the aspect that you just kind of have to quietly build and take all these risks.
And there's these moments, you know, day to day, you're looking in the mirror like, man, why am I doing this?
You know, but I got to do it.
And you press on, you know, it makes it all worth it when you have some of these breakthroughs.
Omer (24:05.350)
I should have asked you this earlier, but give us a sense of the size of the business, where are you in terms of revenue, customers, size of team, because I think that will help people listening to this understand what you've been able to accomplish in the last six or seven years.
Brett Turner (24:23.030)
Yeah, when I started and some of this was, I chose to sort of bootstrap this, raise, you know, some money, but just a handful of angel investors who in my network are invested maybe in a previous startup who wanted to be a part of this and you know, also big believers in what was, what was happening.
It took about two and a half years.
There was a, it was all but was me and a group of contractors and engineers.
There's an engineering firm involved that was kind of helping.
But I met who became employee number one who just a super talented technology like CPO type, great at design, great at innovation as a consultant to help me kind of get things going and kind of manage the engineers.
Early on he then kind of had to untether for a bit.
So I'm kind of working through all this.
But also all along the hope was that he was going to come back.
We get the funding and did.
And he's been absolutely amazing and an incredible partner to me through this whole journey.
So kind of this first two and a half years just to kind of get.
In some ways it's hard because that's a long time, but in the enterprise world it takes a long time to kind of build up something more credible, but just in some ways to get to this key inflection point.
And then from There, you know, J.P. morgan invested.
We started to really rebuild and expand massively at that point as a platform versus what we had had.
We launched that six months in the market later.
So we've now been in market for about four years.
We've grown to, we have about 100 employees today.
We're, you know, a little over 200 customers.
We're crossing over roughly generally don't share revenue but like just in terms of over our ARR metric, crossing over around 10 million in ARR, that's over the course of four years.
It's never easy, it definitely takes time.
But it's awesome and rewarding as you start to experience the scale as it starts to grow.
I think the thing in the enterprise world you generally have to grind it out through the day to day slog to get things going.
Then you get these inflection points that it don't.
It's not quite as a quick hit when it starts to kick in where you get this instant market feedback from a consumer or maybe small business.
We generally got a lot of plenty of validation early on but I still feel like even though we've grown a lot and we're growing 2.5x year over year since we started, which is fast, but still I still feel like we haven't even, we're just scratching the surface on where this is going because of how ubiquitous it could be.
Omer (27:14.480)
And then I think you've, you've also raised close to 58 million by now.
Is that right?
Brett Turner (27:20.080)
Right.
Just shy of 60.
Yep.
Omer (27:21.480)
Great.
So let's talk about customers.
Like where were you getting these 200 or so customers from?
You.
I know earlier you told me that some of these were coming through referrals from the banks.
Was that the, the main source of, of customer acquisition or what else have you done to acquire customers?
Brett Turner (27:42.090)
Yeah, I think part of, and too I would just say kind of again thinking through the go to market, you know, we're selling to finance folks, it's controllers, it's CFOs, it's, it's the treasurer and treasurers, treasury teams, finance teams.
And so these are hard people to sell to.
You know, I've been one of them.
I know that I'm a hard sell.
Right.
So finance folks, treasury folks, they're professional risk managers.
So of course they're going to be harder to sell to.
So I think that going in like how do we do that?
We've got to have, we got to think through more than ever.
The go to market is going to be critical.
And that's why it was also a lot of that testing thesis of talking to a lot of different folks in advance to get that right.
And a big part of this was the kind of, you know, why the banks made so much sense because we not only kind of were a bridging mechanism for the APIs and their customers, but it also, we had this Experience and the banks could, it was something they didn't have and they could refer customers to us and then hence the investment that kind of helped lock that in and help propel that.
So we did have some of that.
But I would just say the other thing is banks, as we all know aren't the fastest.
It's a financial institution, just the name alone.
They're not going anywhere, moving anywhere fast.
And so you have to be patient with that.
So if you're dependent fully on the banks as your go to market, you're in trouble because you could kind of just bleed out.
Omer (29:07.260)
Which is why I was surprised that you were willing to wait for them to build the APIs.
That didn't seem like a quick thing that was ever going to happen.
Brett Turner (29:15.340)
So I think on the go to market side though is that once we got there and once we, it helped but at the same time we have to sell direct.
So we were both doing it.
And kind of what I describe is like, and folks will hear me say this within the company a lot, but it's finding you got to set up, you know, a number of ways to win and you, you gotta, you know, you want to have more of these controllables and more of the risk is execution risk.
So from a go to market perspective, you have to de risk that how much of that is in your control, how much is not.
If I'm just fully, you know, overhanging on the banks, that's, that's not a good strategy.
So you gotta sell direct.
And then we kind of had this, it was almost like augmenting that with bank referrals and they started slow, they started coming in and honestly it's still been where it's not like floodgates, but it's been super helpful, of course.
But it's something there that's kind of starting to get a bigger and bigger piece of how we kind of source business.
But it's still going direct and selling direct is still today our primary sourcing.
And I think that's going to continue to, that pendulum will continue to swing a little bit.
We'll do more with banks as we go.
But again, four years in market, you have to sell direct and you have to control that a bit.
But one of the things that was, I would say one of the nice things kind of part of our early outreach script and this is not because we're partnering on the API side.
It was more, J.P. morgan had become an investor.
What we said in our early script, we're right out of the gate We're a JP Morgan backed solution.
And just being able to say that it was almost a little bit like this, a little bit of credibility or what I'll kind of coin is term like transference of trust.
What are those ways to get, if there's a bit of credibility or trust in the market, kind of getting that association.
And so it's not going to win you the deal, but at least it's going to give you a chance or a foot in the door to help talk about the value prop and give you a shot.
And that was really helpful.
And that was something that we'd gone through and kind of got approved with the JP Morgan team as part of that.
That has turned into kind of referral partnerships and whatnot.
You find some of those ways to kind of mix and match that effectiveness, whether you're direct or channels or leveraging kind of everything in between to try to try to win business.
But that definitely was a key part of the early going.
Omer (31:47.470)
So kind of more of the conventional advice for early stage SaaS companies is often to go and find the early adopters, the people who are more likely to be open to using your crappy product because they're excited about it, they believe that it can become something.
And with you it's very different.
I mean you're talking about people with established businesses, they're risk averse.
Having the banks give you referrals or being able to say we're a JP Morgan backed company definitely gives credibility and gets your foot in the door.
But can you, can you give us a couple of examples of what else were you doing to overcome this risk aversion?
Like if somebody else is in, maybe in a different vertical somewhere is dealing with customers today who are risk averse.
Like what are some things that they could maybe learn from your experience?
Brett Turner (32:35.100)
Well, I think with early adopters there is a bit of that, the relationship and you know, getting the customer to be a part of the journey.
They're, they're not just in the early days and you're talking to tech companies because tech companies or more forward thinking folks within companies about treasury or finance who would want to be a part of the journey because they could not, they were not just buying what we had at the time, but they were also buying into where we were going.
And you, you have to like, you lay out the breadcrumbs and they could see it and it's like there was so much demand.
20 years of an absence of innovation, like yes, finally, and this is credible.
Oh, you got J.P. morgan backing.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, I see what you're doing.
Yeah, this is exactly what we need.
Or it's got some issues or some gaps or things that they would want.
And there was no shortage of critiquing their product in the early going.
Like, I wish they had this next.
And that still happens, but especially in the early going, you, you have to walk through really the vision of where this is going and they're kind of buying in into you and the team and all phases.
I think that's a big part of it.
But the other difficulty I think for us too is on the enterprise side.
You can't just build it and throw it over the wall and get them to, hey, it's beta, go ahead and have at it.
They're not going to use it.
And so it has to meet a certain rigor.
And that's why we, you know, we went, became SOC compliant really early on, way earlier than normally you'd have to.
But when we have a little bit of the pressure that we've got to live up to, like we can't, we can't make JP Morgan look bad, right?
That's, that's never going to happen.
If we do that, we're out.
And bankers themselves who are may maybe making a referral or bringing in us to a company that they value, that's in their Rolodex, who they're serving and that relationship capital is gold to them.
Like, we can't screw that up.
So the thing is, the pressure was there.
We had to make sure that we do it right at a certain level of kind of enterprise grade rigor.
But the flip side, if we do meet those things and if we do that well, then like having the bank rep be a part of the sale, I would invite them in from the early going, say, you know, not only the introduction, but I want you as much as you're willing to be, is be on the demo call, be a part of the sales process.
Because I felt like if we did a good job and the experience was good and we were banking on ourselves, no pun intended, that that was going to happen, then they would basically be like a mini testimonial because they sort of got to ride shotgun in the vehicle and they got to see it all and then what are they going to do?
It's like, hey, these guys are professional.
These guys, you know, they're backing up what they're saying.
The customer.
And I saw the customer's eyes light up.
They really like this product.
So that became a mini testimonial.
Of going to maybe getting a second customer and a third customer.
And so I think at the end of the day like every one of those things is just an opportunity that you gotta nail, you gotta take advantage of and it's not.
There's so many of those moments that can help you if you truly lean in and see em as such.
Omer (35:49.050)
Awesome.
Okay, we should wrap up and get onto the lightning round.
Before we do that, I just want to ask you one final question about your experience with Truvada.
Every startup you worked on before you were a co founder, you decided to do this as a solo founder.
How has that experience been different?
Brett Turner (36:09.940)
It kind of cuts both ways a little bit on one hand because I've been doing Torada's, my seventh startup.
I've been doing this for a while.
So yeah, you learn what not to do.
You kind of maybe anticipate a little bit more what's coming around the bend.
You know, you want to make sure you have a sense that it may be a semi and you might be ready for.
You got a brace for a head on collision.
I think all that's helpful, but it also gives you in some ways for me, a little bit of wanting to kind of taking on a little more risk and wanting, being a little bit more of a dreamer or really kind of, here's what we can build and being a little bit more of an optimistic.
You have to be a little more optimist, but you also have to be kind of stuck in reality.
So I think the more of that that you have, maybe the more you feel like you can do it.
But in the startup world, it's an everyday contact sport and if you're not approaching it with a level of humility every single day, humble pie is waiting for you right around the corner.
And so I think that's the aspect.
So it's in some ways maybe doing this, I thought that I could like, anyway, I'm thinking, oh yeah, I could do this better, faster, more efficient and I could get there a lot sooner.
And it's like, yeah, but now I'm having those moments.
It's like 18 months in and I'm having conversations with my wife and she's going, really?
What have you gotten yourself into now?
Right, so is this really supposed to take that long?
And now I'm really investing and taking way more risks than I ever even imagined.
So like, how does that happen?
And I know better, I know how this works.
So that's the thing about it.
You're always.
But that's Also what makes it so exciting and exhilarating, it's a little bit like an extreme sport.
Right.
So I think in some ways it did.
It helped me be able to make an impact and, and really from the product to the whole go to market and really bottoms up kind of architect, really the people quotient is just so crucial to get right.
So being on every single interview is almost like hand picking every single person to make sure that we have this incredibly diverse but high functional team that's willing to work together.
All that's such a key part of it.
So yeah, there's pros and cons and I think some of this wasn't necessarily intended.
I just like, oh yeah, two and a half years before we get funded.
Yeah, I wasn't necessarily signing up for that.
But you kind of think you can beat the curve.
But like I say, it's definitely a journey every step of the way, every single time.
Omer (38:57.090)
It doesn't get easier, right?
Brett Turner (39:00.690)
It can be easier, but it's not easy.
Omer (39:03.520)
All right, let's move on to the lightning round.
So I've got seven quick fire questions for you.
Just try to answer them as quickly as you can.
Are you ready?
Brett Turner (39:09.400)
Sure.
Omer (39:10.400)
What's one of the best pieces of business advice you've received?
Brett Turner (39:14.080)
Yeah, I think one was just how valuable a financial operating plan was that.
And then also just the aspect of seeing how important the team is.
But I think the financial operating plan as a tool, and I'm a finance person, had that background going in, but it's almost like I maybe took that for granted a little bit and I kind of seen things.
But as an operating tool, it forces you to think through every aspect of the business because you have to plan, you have to think through it.
Nobody likes to do it, even myself.
Knowing how to put these together, it's not like it's a great deal of fun.
But what it does do is it forces you to kind of visualize, to think ahead.
Time box, various things.
Okay, here's your revenue.
It's on a spreadsheet and you're thinking, going to get this and this.
Oh, well, yeah, but what about collecting cash?
Because you think you're going to sell this product here, you're not going to collect cash for another three months.
So how does that kick in?
Can you really hire these people now or does it really mean you can stretch out your.
Not raise capital until that point because you're.
If I model out your cash, it's like maybe two thirds of what you think you think you have so big parts of what Truvada is really helping solve.
But I think that is kind of a.
That became really an invaluable tool of how to process because it forced you to go through a really rigorous checklist in a lot of ways from go to market how you're gonna make money.
Just very fundamental things.
If you don't have really good answers for that, it really challenges whether you should be starting that business.
Omer (40:53.590)
What book would you recommend to our audience and why?
Brett Turner (40:56.310)
I know I wish I read more than I do.
I read so much news, but I would say one book that stands out that was really good.
And I'm a little add with books sometimes, but good to great.
I think that was one that was really good.
Let's just cover to cover.
That was just really helpful as a tool.
I think the other thing that I like, maybe that I've loved is Michael Lewis's books from Liars Poker to Moneyball to Flash Boys, because they have this entrepreneurial.
They're thinking about things that nobody's ever thought about.
So it's got this entrepreneurial, but written in this storybook fashion.
That's just fascinating.
That's something I always like from just to kind of a little bit more inspirational.
That's been fun.
Omer (41:46.750)
What's one attribute or characteristic in your mind of a successful founder?
Brett Turner (41:50.430)
Yeah, I think that you have to be maniacal and details matter.
Whether you like it or not, you gotta care about the details.
And I think the other thing is people.
I think I call it the people quotient is so critical because you're basically reinventing the company multiple times on its path, you know, upward.
If you're going to be successful, you're, you're.
You're likely going to reinvent your company several times to get to those different success points.
And so the right person in the right role at the right time, those three dynamics together that kind of go in harmony, those are absolutely critical to get right.
They can wreak havoc on your business if you get it wrong and if you neglect it, you think, hey, we've got the team good to go.
We're locked up for the next, you know, not.
No, you're constantly having to reinvent that.
And the reality is you want to create a culture that's both people are excited, but also you want it really transparent.
Because that can be hard because there's going to be times people are in certain roles.
And I would say this early on with people that would know.
It's like you're going to get an opportunity to take on this piece of the business, but it's really up to you to kind of grow.
Because if the business is growing three times faster than that person's ability to grow and keep up with it, then.
And we're all under that, including me, we all have to kind of dynamically change and grow with it.
And so I don't know, maybe that's two or three things, but that's.
Omer (43:23.320)
What's your favorite personal productivity tool or habit?
Brett Turner (43:26.440)
I guess because I can get a bit obsessive, I'm a little bit more of a, a list maker.
I'll kind of just, I'm constantly, you know, and I think for me, because I'm more visual, which may seem a little different because I have a finance background, but I just kind of see and think more in pictures and so I just, I have to write it down.
When I'm writing stuff down, I, I remember or remember things really, really well.
So oftentimes I'll doodle, I'll.
With whether I'm trying to figure something out.
I'll just, I'll be writing a lot.
So I've got kind of my, my own little journal book that I go through.
Probably, you know, every couple of months I'm going through a new one and just, you know, it probably would make no sense to anybody that got it and picked it up.
But it helps me really stay on track and, and kind of get things done and kind of focus on the stuff that matters.
Omer (44:20.090)
What's a new or crazy business idea you'd love to pursue if you had the extra time?
Brett Turner (44:24.350)
Usually there's always a few in my head, but I think at this point, and especially Travata now is now six plus years, now what, seven since we started.
Travada is my final.
So I say that also because I think at this point my wife's not going to let me do another startup.
So I don't think I have the luxury of thinking too many because if I start to do, she'll remind me.
It's like, okay, this is it, you're done.
Family is so important to me.
So I think that's a big part of the, you know, the grounding, but also the, you know, the promises that I have to keep to make sure that I don't let that spill over too much.
Probably not a good answer, but that's kind of nothing other comes to mind in terms of dissolving world hunger or cold fusion.
Omer (45:11.170)
It's an honest answer.
So what's an interesting or fun fact about you that most people don't know.
Brett Turner (45:17.030)
I.
Well, one thing is I just, I'm a big family guy.
So I and I.
And oftentimes for maybe a little bit of the, the fun thing to do with family, it's like, well, we'll get into board games.
Like I was telling somebody the other day, like, we're.
Oh yeah, we have big battles now.
My 12 year old and we're.
And she's really competitive.
I think she now is starting to.
I'm realizing, you know what, I'm going to have a run for my money because she's smart and really competitive and we'll be playing like Catan and she's like, if it's two times in a row she's.
And she's beating.
It's like, all right, what's going on here?
So, but we'll have some great bat, whether it's Battleship or Catan or whatever, board games is a lot of fun.
We'll do that as a family.
Quite a bit.
Omer (45:57.300)
Quite a bit.
Finally, what's one of your most important passions outside of your work?
You may have just answered that.
Brett Turner (46:02.580)
Yeah, family, of course.
I'm a big.
I grew up playing a lot of sports.
Probably a lot of the aspect of like how to win as a team that's just so critical in the startup world.
So even though this is.
Don't.
Even though I talk about this started Truvada, kind of the solo founder journey is no way.
It's like surrounding yourself with great people.
It's gotta be a team game.
But yeah, definitely my family is part of the key part of the personal team.
But I'm a big part of sports guy, so I love basketball, football, you know, that's, you know, I love that as well.
Omer (46:41.940)
Great.
Well, Brett, thank you so much for joining me and sharing the story of Truvada.
If people want to find out more, they can go to Trovata IO and if folks want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Brett Turner (46:57.860)
Yeah, on LinkedIn I think is best.
We also have like Truvada AI.
We have a big AI story now.
Trotta AI is released in the product.
Something that is the first, we believe, the first true generative finance and treasury tool that's now live.
It's live.
A lot of our big customers are starting to use it now.
So it's going to be fun to see how that takes a hold and then we talk about a little bit of that.
We have our own podcast which maybe get you on there, but it's fintech Corner, and so we talk about a number of these things, including AI as well.
Omer (47:31.050)
Awesome.
Uh, yeah, we'll.
We'll include a link to the podcast and your LinkedIn profile on the show Notes.
So it feels.
It feels like we just scratched the surface talking about all the stuff we could have, but I appreciate you making the time.
Thanks for.
For sharing the story and some of the lessons you've learned along the way.
And I wish you and the team the best of success.
Brett Turner (47:50.660)
Thank you so much.
Really appreciate it.
Thanks.
Happy to be on.
Omer (47:54.020)
Awesome.
Take care.
Cheers.
