Omer (00:11.840)
Welcome to another episode of the SaaS Podcast.
I'm your host, Omer Khan and this is the show where I interview proven founders and industry experts who share their stories, strategies and insights to help you build, launch and grow your SaaS business.
Today's interview is with Stu McLaren.
Stu is the founder of Wishlist Member, a powerful and easy to use plugin that can turn any WordPress site into a full blown membership site.
Wishlist member powers over 54,000 online communities and membership sites worldwide.
Stu is also the founder of Rhino Support, a help desk SaaS application.
Now this is part two of the interview with Stu and we talk about an announcement that he made just a day before this interview where he decided to sell his stake in his software business and go and do something else.
Now, wishlist Member is doing really well.
It's a multiple seven figures a year business and Stu still has a great relationship with his partners.
So why sell his stake and walk away from that business?
It's an interesting story and I think there are valuable lessons in there for all types of entrepreneurs on the importance of focus and what that really means.
So I hope you enjoy this.
Okay, so you've got wishlist members still doing really well, and then you guys have come up with a new strategy for Rhino Support on how to get, get that growth kind of moving.
And so things are looking pretty well on sort of both sides.
But then you decided, you made an announcement yesterday.
Can you tell the audience about that?
Stu McLaren (01:58.680)
Yeah, I decided to sell my interest in both companies.
This is something that I never envisioned myself saying.
Both companies are doing well.
I love my business partners, I love the team that we have developed, and I love our customers and I'm really, really proud of the products that we have created and I'm humbled by the number of people that use them.
A day never goes by when I don't get a Facebook message, a Twitter message, or if somebody sees me speaking at a conference or seminar and come up to me and just say what wishlist Member has done for them.
There's never a day that goes by when I don't get at least one person providing some kind of commentary like that.
And so that's really meaningful to me.
It's incredibly gratifying hearing how the products that you've developed have helped somebody in their life or in their business.
So why would I want to sell?
Right.
Well, what ended up happening was I went away with my wife and daughter to a family camp.
Essentially, it's just like a summer camp for families.
One night while we were there.
We're staying in this one room cabin and it is pouring down rain outside.
Two in the morning.
I wake up and I just can't fall back to sleep.
The rain is just pounding on the tin roof and I can't turn on a light to read because I'd wake up my wife and my daughter.
I can't go outside because it's pouring down rain.
I'm just left there in the darkness with my thoughts.
Now for some, that may be a place of comfort.
For me, I was just scared to death at that moment because there were no distractions.
What ended up happening was I started asking myself a whole bunch of questions.
The questions really came from a couple books that I had read just prior to this trip.
One book was called Essentialism.
The author is Greg McKeown.
And the subtitle for that book is called Disciplined Pursuit of Less.
Then the other book was a book called the One Thing by Gary Keller.
Both books tremendously influenced my thinking as soon as I read them.
And both books made it into my top five of all time.
They were that good.
I remember sitting there or laying there in darkness, starting to ask myself some questions.
Questions like, of all the things that I'm working on right now, what are my nines and tens?
And I'll explain that in a minute.
Another question was like, what projects make me feel really good?
Or what projects cause stress?
Or what projects feel natural and easy?
Or what do I want to work on but somehow never find the time?
Or what are my priorities right now?
And are they the priorities that I actually want them to be?
Or what do I want to be known for in three, five, ten years from now?
Or what current projects give me the platform I need to have the impact I want to have?
These are all very potent questions.
One of the things that I, Greg McKeown, in the book Essentialism talked about, there was one section that he described a process he called the 90% rule for making decisions on different things.
And the premise is this, you basically take whatever you're looking to make a decision on and you decide and identify the single most important criterion for that decision.
So, for example, if I'm evaluating a variety of different projects that I'm working on, perhaps the single most important criterion is what projects do I enjoy working on the most?
Or another criterion could have been what are the most profitable projects?
Or another criterion would have been like, what makes me feel good?
Whatever the most important criterion is, then you take all of the options and you rank them on a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of how they match up to that criterion.
So if it was like profitability, you would take all the options and you would rank them.
Is this one, is this going to be a one which would be very low, or is this going to be a 10 in terms of profitability, or is it somewhere in between?
What happens once you've ranked all of them on a scale of 1 to 10 in the book?
He describes the danger that most entrepreneurs or people make is that they continue to put energy towards the projects or the things that rank a 6, 7 or an 8.
He said that's the real danger area because you're wasting energy toward things that aren't a 9 or a 10, or the absolute things or the areas that you want to be putting your energy in.
He has this great diagram in the beginning of the book where he has two circles side by side.
The circle on the left has a whole bunch of little arrows coming out of it.
The circle on the right has one big arrow going straight up.
The fascinating thing is the length of the arrows are exactly the same.
The only difference is the one on the left is going in a whole bunch of different directions.
Dispersing all of that energy and in a tiny way, in a whole bunch of ways, versus focusing all that energy in one single direction and making meaningful progress.
That really struck a chord with me.
The question that he says was rank.
What are your nines and tens?
And anything less than a nine or a ten, you got to eliminate.
When I was asking all of those questions I mentioned, I was ranking everything on a 9 and a 10 or on a 10 point scale.
What I realized was that the business that I have grown to love, Wish list, it ranked an 8 for me.
And that was probably the worst number it could have ranked.
If it was a five, it would have been super easy to say, okay, you know what, it's time to drop this and move on.
But being an 8 was so difficult because I, I remember sitting there saying, it's not a nine, so you've got to get rid of it.
But then I'm also like, yeah, but if I just did this one thing here, or if we just did this, it would probably make it a 9.
There was all kinds of counter questions that kept popping up in my head, but I knew in my heart of hearts that it was time to sell that company.
I had all kinds of fear and doubt about that.
I was thinking about, what would my wife think?
Wishlist has been the primary source of our income for our family, giving it up.
It's certainly going to create a bunch of uncertainty.
Do I really want that?
I was thinking about how this would impact my friendship with my business partners and our team.
These are relationships that span years.
In fact, one of the relationships spans back to even when I was a seven year old, has been a friend since I was seven years old.
It posed questions like this is part of my identity.
When somebody says, what do you do?
How am I going to answer that question now?
Wishlist for so long has been part of my identity and I've felt so much pride being able to say what it is that I do.
How would I answer that now?
The other question that really challenged the emotions and ego was that do I really want to let go of something that has been so successful?
What if this is it?
What if this is my only big entrepreneurial success and I'm willing to just let it go and I'm going to bow out?
There was all kinds of fear, all kinds of anxiety.
But the ultimate conclusion that I came to was that it was necessary for me to sell the company
Omer (10:16.140)
and focus on what.
Stu McLaren (10:19.500)
So in the last two years I did a little bit of an experiment with a New York Times best selling author named Michael Hyatt.
The experiment was he had an audience, but he did not have a way to monetize that following.
His business was built on him delivering speeches and presentations all around the country and oftentimes the world.
He's a New York Times best selling author.
So he was high in demand.
But that kind of business model is very taxing.
He did not like the travel.
He was on the road.
He was doing between 30 and 40 speaking engagements a year.
But that required a lot.
I mean there's a day on the front of that for travel, there's a day on the back of that of travel.
So every time he speaks, it's a minimum of three day process.
He was just tired.
He was tired of being away from his wife.
He was tired of being away from his elderly parents.
He was tired of being away from his kids.
He was tired of being away from his grandkids.
He was looking for a way to be able to redesign his business and we partnered together and developed a membership site.
Now the reason this worked was because I am intimately familiar with how to structure, launch and grow a membership site.
Not only have we been doing it ourselves, but I have unique opportunity to be able to learn from the best of the best of our customers.
We have over 54,000 customers who have built membership sites and communities.
So I've just had this, been in this unique position to really learn what the best practices are for setting up, launching and growing a membership site.
So we partnered together and almost immediately the site took off.
Our first launch, within the first week we had over 1100 members at $20 a month.
And then we raised the price and the membership site just kept growing and growing and growing.
Before long, that membership site was a multiple seven figure a year membership site.
It was just an incredible experience for me.
It was an incredible experience to work alongside Michael because a, he's an amazing guy.
He's a former CEO of one of the largest publishing companies in the world.
So he's got all this seasoned experience running bigger companies.
He's also an entrepreneur at heart.
He's had many entrepreneurial successes, he's had many entrepreneurial failures and he's learned a lot from that.
He's very transparent in just sharing his experience.
I learned a ton through working with him and he ended up, he's become a very dear friend and I just really enjoyed working with him and I really enjoyed the impact that his information was having on so many people.
One of the things when I was asking myself all those questions that night was I realized that I just really enjoy that line of work.
I really enjoy helping entrepreneurs, specifically like authors, speakers or niche celebrities, if you will, who have a following, but they just want help being able to monetize, maximize and optimize that business.
The business side of it, I have been exploring that and it's been an incredible adventure.
I've had many very big name authors who have sought out my consulting who have wanted to partner together and basically replicate the success that I've had with Michael, with them and their audience.
It's been a very fulfilling opportunity.
The other thing is that I just realized that beyond just the author, speakers and niche celebrities per se, I just love helping entrepreneurs and I love helping entrepreneurs redesign their business so that it's less stressful.
One of the things that I discovered is a lot of business owners, they start a business, they're excited, they're pumped up about it, but before long, the business turns into something that doesn't really excite them anymore.
It's stressful, it's overwhelming, but they feel trapped because if they stop doing what they're doing financially, it could create a real sticky situation for them and their family.
And so they don't want to give that up.
But at the same time, you're really connected to what it is that they want to do.
They don't want to continue doing what they're doing either because they're not enjoying it.
I really want to help entrepreneurs be able to redesign their business, find ways to be able to work less while making more.
And ultimately so that you can have the impact that you really want to have.
Because that's something that's near and dear to my heart.
I believe as entrepreneurs, we are the ones that can really change this world through our ideas and our business and so forth.
And, and so I really want to help entrepreneurs do more of that.
So that's essentially the what's next for me.
Omer (15:42.970)
So that's a major leap.
And you know, and I thank you for sharing your thought process and how you came to this decision.
And it clearly wasn't an easy or simple decision to make.
Now, quite often, you know, with many entrepreneurs, they end up in a situation where maybe they're doing multiple things
Stu McLaren (16:08.430)
because
Omer (16:08.750)
they want to have a plan B and a plan C. What advice would you give to somebody in that situation?
Stu McLaren (16:20.670)
Well, I've struggled with it myself and it's a disease, Omer.
It is something I call idea diarrhea.
And here's the reality.
I used to be the kind of guy and I'm a very, I consider myself a very creative guy.
So I love coming up with new ideas.
So I would have a great idea on Monday and I'd start working toward that.
And then Tuesday would come along and I'd be like, oh, wait a minute, and I'd have another idea.
So I'd stop working on Monday's idea, I'd start working on Tuesday's idea, and then Wednesday would roll around and I'd have another idea.
So now I would stop Tuesdays and of course I've stopped Mondays, but I'm working on Wednesdays because this is the one.
And then Thursday would roll around and the same thing would happen.
And so what ends up when you look at the end of the week, you've got all these half assed ideas that you've made a little progress in all these different directions.
And that's why that diagram in the Book of Essentialism really stood out to me because that circle on the left with all those little arrows and that's the exact thing that you're talking about right now.
That's the entrepreneur that's got all these different plan A's and plan B's and plan C's and they're simultaneously trying to work on all of them, but they're really not making any meaningful progress in any of them versus the diagram on the right which is a circle with one straight line going straight up.
That's the entrepreneur who has doubled down their efforts on one single idea, has recognized, you know what, I am going to have other ideas and I am going to document them in Evernote or whatever to capture them, but I am not going to give them any energy because I am focused.
I am focused on that one.
When I look at my success before Wish List, I was the diagram.
I was the entrepreneur on the left.
I was the guy that had a whole bunch of ideas going in a whole bunch of different directions.
With Wish List, I was the guy on the right.
I doubled down my efforts on wishlist itself.
And I said, you know what?
I do have a whole bunch of ideas, but I'm going to figure out how to channel that creativity into everything that we do with wishlist.
As a result, that business completely took off.
As I step out into this new world of opportunity and have made this big decision, I'm really intentionally trying to stay focused, similar in the same way, because there's so much opportunity coming my way that it's very easy to be able to get distracted and to even justify pursuing multiple projects at the same time.
But the question is, is it the one thing that's really going to move me forward?
Is it the one thing that's going to get me to the end destination that I'm trying to get to?
And if it's not, even if it's a great idea, I'm going to have to have the discipline to put it aside?
That would be my advice.
Yes, you definitely want a plan A, a plan B and plan C. But the reality is, if you don't put 100% of your effort into a plan A, then plan A is never going to take off.
You're never going to have the space, mentally and emotionally, to be able to really explore the potential of your plan A if you're always being sidetracked by a plan B, C, D and E.
Omer (19:41.440)
I think listening to that, I think that's great advice.
But, you know, I think I've heard a lot of people say this, and I think, but honestly, I've been in that situation myself as well, is what if.
What if you pick that wrong idea?
What if that plan A turns out to be just a really bad idea in hindsight?
And I think that maybe is often the thing that holds people back from making that decision.
Stu McLaren (20:05.210)
Well, I think you're probably right, but you can't account for all the what ifs.
What if the world collapsed tomorrow?
Do you think about that.
What if you're in your car tomorrow and you get in a severe accident and you can't work anymore?
What if that happens?
I mean, there are so many what ifs that you can't ever account for all the possible scenarios that could play out.
But what you can do is you can have confidence in your ability to be able to adapt and roll with the punches.
Even if you go all in on plan A and then you later find out three months, five months, six months down the road that it's not working out, then you shift gears and you focus on something else.
But at least you've explored that idea to its full capacity versus trying to manage three, four, five different ideas simultaneously, never making meaningful progress in any one of them and coming to the same conclusion 5, 10, 15 years down the road.
I would rather come to the conclusion that an idea is not worth pursuing sooner rather than later, having been able to put, you know, all my effort into it to fully explore the potential of that idea and come to that conclusion versus half assedly going about it and coming to the same conclusion way further out down the road and certainly with way more stress along the way.
Omer (21:33.790)
That's really great advice.
Okay, Stu, it's time for our lightning round.
I'm going to ask you a series of questions and I'd like you just to answer them as quickly as you can.
Stu McLaren (21:43.230)
Are you ready?
Let's go for it.
Omer (21:45.160)
All right, what's the best piece of business advice that you ever received?
Stu McLaren (21:49.160)
Keep things simple.
Omer (21:52.520)
I'm not going to ask you what book you'd recommend because you already made two great recommendations.
So let's move on.
What's the one attribute or characteristic in your mind of a successful entrepreneur?
Stu McLaren (22:03.640)
It's the same advice that I received, and that is the characteristic is simplicity.
It's way more difficult to make things simple than it is to make them complex.
It's way more difficult to succinctly say what you want to say in three sentences versus an entire page.
I think that's the real skill set or characteristic of a winning entrepreneur is their ability to be able to make everything they do simple.
Omer (22:34.720)
What's your favorite personal productivity tool or habit?
Stu McLaren (22:39.600)
My favorite tool by far is Zapier and ifttt.
Both of those tools I use every single day to automate a variety of different processes that help me be more productive.
Omer (22:53.120)
Yeah, Zapier is a great product and Wade Foster, the co founder and CEO, was actually the first guest on this podcast.
So there you go.
Stu McLaren (23:01.680)
Very cool.
Omer (23:02.960)
If you had to start over tomorrow, how would you go about finding that next business opportunity?
Stu McLaren (23:07.580)
Well, I am starting over.
So for me it's about identifying a need in the marketplace.
And I've seen a need where entrepreneurs I want to help entrepreneurs make more with less stress.
Omer (23:23.259)
What's an interesting or fun fact about you that most people don't know?
Stu McLaren (23:27.980)
I am an adrenaline junkie.
So every year I seek out high adventure activities because they push me in terms of my ability to be able to move forward while I face fear.
That means certainly skydiving, bungee jumping, that means swimming with sharks, driving Formula one cars.
Things that really push me from a fear standpoint because I think as entrepreneurs we need to build that muscle every day.
As an entrepreneur, you're going to face some element of fear and if you aren't comfortable pushing through that, you're going to get stuck.
Every year I try to challenge myself with some high adrenaline adventure activity because I feel the fear, but I still do it anyway and I think that it trains me to be able to get comfortable with fear.
Omer (24:24.570)
From this conversation, I think I know you well enough to know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyway.
What is one of your most important passions outside of your work?
Stu McLaren (24:34.290)
Building schools in Africa.
I realized the true potential that we have as entrepreneurs when I was standing in a wide open field in the middle of rural Kenya and I was meeting with a chairman of this community where we were looking to build schools.
I was asking questions about the cost of things that are involved.
One of the questions I said are or I asked was how much does a full time teacher get paid?
And his answer changed forever my passion when it comes to entrepreneurship.
He said it costs about $100 a month to fund the full time salary of a teacher.
And the reason that that really struck home to me was because we sell wishlist products for $97, so essentially the same price.
And I immediately made the connection where I said to myself, wait a minute, if I make one more sale per month of wishlist member that would fund the full time salary of a teacher.
And ever since that moment, it made me realize, wow, what an opportunity we have as entrepreneurs.
What an opportunity we have to be able to make money and be able to channel that to causes and things that we're passionate about.
In the beginning, growing up in a small community myself, I had already achieved tremendous success.
I was almost like self sabotaging myself because I felt almost guilty about the amount of money that I was making and the amount of success I was experiencing.
But after that day in Africa.
When I made that connection, I no longer felt guilty about making money or talking about money.
I want to make as much money as humanly possible because the more money I make, the more impact I can have.
I'm real passionate about certainly building schools in Kenya, and I'm real passionate about using my entrepreneurial skills and certainly hopefully inspiring other entrepreneurs to use their skills for greater good.
Omer (26:44.430)
Great, Stu.
I've really enjoyed this discussion.
I want to thank you for joining me today and sharing your experiences and insights with our audience.
And thank you for letting us get to know you better personally and for sharing your your recent experiences and your thought process as you kind of start out on this next phase in your in your life.
If folks want to find out more about Wishlist Member or Rhino Support or they want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Stu McLaren (27:13.450)
Wishlist member is@wishlistmember.com Rhino support is rhinosupport.com and my personal website.
And this is where I'll be starting.
Everything from this day forward is at Stu Me S T U Me.
Omer (27:30.650)
Awesome.
Thanks again Stu, and I wish you continued success.
