Finding Product-Market Fit With $15K Left and a Napkin

Omer (00:11.840)
Welcome to another episode of the SaaS Podcast.
I'm your host, Omer Khan, and this is the show where I interview proven founders and industry experts who share their stories, strategies and insights to help you build, launch and grow your SaaS business.

Mike Muhney (00:29.970)
Okay.

Omer (00:30.330)
Today's guest is the co founder and CEO of VIP Orbit Software, a company focused on building great content management products.
Their flagship product, Viper CRM, is available on iOS and Mac platforms.
The company was founded in 2010 and to date has raised over $4 million in funding.
In 1980, 86, my guest co founded a software business that eventually failed.
And with only $15,000 remaining from an angel investment of $100,000, they had to come up with another idea or close down the business.
The idea they came up with was Act Contact management software, which they eventually went on to sell for over $40 million.
So today I'd like to welcome Mike Muhney.
Mike, welcome to the show.

Mike Muhney (01:24.590)
Thank you, Omer.
Great to be here.

Omer (01:26.910)
Now, I like to sort of get started by asking my guests if they have a favorite quote or what gets them out of bed in the mornings.
So what is it for you?
Is there a quote that resonates for you?
Or if not, just what is it that drives and motivates you to do what you do every day?

Mike Muhney (01:48.670)
Well, I'll give you three things, if that's okay.
Two quotes and one perspective of myself.
The first quote, and it applies to certainly entrepreneurs, certainly just people in general as far as their relationships with both business and personal context.
But the quote is this.
It's from a poet, and I'm not a poetic kind of guy, by the way, but it does inspire me.
John Greenleaf whittier in the 1800 era.
And this is what he said, of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, what might have been.
And I apply that to myself personally and as an entrepreneur, because I think most entrepreneurs, if not all, are obviously wanting to change the world, to improve it, to provide something of value to people, to help them.
And so we can't fall back on wanting to do it.
We have to try to execute to achieve having done it.
And that's why I like that quote.
I don't want to live a life of what might have been.
I want to at least plow my field and try to grow what can be grown in the world, in the market, and everything else will come from that.
The second quote that I like, and it's a baseball analogy, Imagine the batter standing up at the plate, and this is the Quote, every attempt does not produce a hit, and every hit does not produce a home run.
But every home run is the result of both the attempt and the hit.
You gotta play the game in my standpoint.
And the third item, the perspective of myself, Omer, is despite the success of ACT and its impact literally on changing the world and creating a global industry today known as CRM, I don't know that I've achieved what I've been meant to achieve yet.
And I live by an attitude of success ought to be a springboard and not a hammock.
So, again, if I look at ACT from the standpoint of, well, if I could do that, what more am I still capable of doing as opposed to resting on the laurels of act?
And those are the things that keep me going every day in one shape or manner.

Omer (04:03.150)
I love that.
I love both the quotes.
And it's great to hear that even after having achieved what you did with act, you still feel like there's.
You're not done yet.

Mike Muhney (04:19.240)
Oh, very much so.
Very far from it.

Omer (04:21.240)
Yeah, love that.
Now, when I was doing research for this interview and I was searching for you, I kept on coming across a Michael Muni.
And in most cases, people, I guess, would be, you know, pretty.
Pretty kind of frustrated or annoyed if they had this kind of issue where, you know, somebody else has a similar name and they're coming up in the searches more often than maybe you are.
But if I've done my research right, that's not a bad thing for you.
Right?
Because of who Michael is.

Mike Muhney (05:01.410)
Yeah, I. I have to subordinate myself to the Michael Muni, who is my oldest son.
And Michael is an actor, successful actor in Hollywood, has earned his entire career acting and has done very well, has never had to wait on tables or anything of that nature.
And so if you do a Google search and there's like, whatever, 16 million results, probably 15,999,000 are Michael Muni.
And I'm the dribble of the thousand.
So, yeah, I'm proud of him.
But as he was growing up, Omer, just like me, you know, he wanted to pursue his dream.
And I definitely encouraged him because it was during that ACT era.
And so I was kind of living a dream that I never imagined myself.
And why wouldn't I encourage him to go after something that most people might be a little bit discouraging of?
In one sense, because it's such a tough business.

Omer (05:56.650)
Now, let's talk a little bit about act.
So I.
In the intro, I talked a little bit about how you and your co founder were down to the last $15,000 and you had to come up with an idea.
Where did the idea for ACT come from?

Mike Muhney (06:16.390)
Well, I do like to answer that question by saying it came out of desperation.
You did mention that we only had $15,000 left and the thought of closing the business, we didn't want to do that.
Obviously.
We enjoyed having our own company.
We were best friends, we wanted to, and we thought we could make a go of it from the product that did fail.
And so got to go back into the context of that era.
Laptops were a fairly new thing.
Very few people had them and they weren't very good to begin with.
People were using paper organizer systems primarily, I think, at least in America, the Daytimer, other parts of the world, Filofax.
But there was a paper system.
We had to have some kind of organization.
And in our view, organization always was centered around the people that you were doing something with or for.
So a mentor suggested we have this Brainstorm breakfast to see if we could come up with an idea.
And we literally started out omer by just saying to each other, okay, we're trying to come up with an idea.
Ideally, if we could come up with something that we ourselves could use and benefit from, that would be better than just coming up with an idea of a product that other people could use, but we couldn't.
And so we looked at the Daytimer, which we had with us at our breakfast, and we said, boy, if we could just turn this into a digital system and structure it where there was more integration, seamless integration, what would it have to do?
And we started this back and forth exchange.
Well, we'd like it to do this, we'd like it to do that.
And as we started talking the menu structure, if you will, the main menu structure began to form.
And I still have that original napkin of that original menu structure, and then kind of a subset of a decision tree, if you will.
And by the end of that four hour brainstorm session, which we said we were going to have no matter what, we were going to sit there no matter what for four hours and see if we can come up with an idea.
When we left that breakfast domer, we knew we were onto something.
And that's basically how it happened.
Desperation.
What do we need ourselves and what would help us?

Omer (08:27.870)
Looking back at that, do you think it was the idea that was, was responsible for helping you build this successful business or was it more about your, you know, where, where you guys were and the sort of the sense of Desperation and wanting to make things, you know, be successful.
I guess I'm wondering how much was it really about the idea?
How much would it be if you had maybe if you had picked another idea, maybe you guys would have been equally successful or maybe more successful.
I don't know.

Mike Muhney (09:05.030)
Yeah, I mean, that's always possible.
You know, it's a coulda, woulda, shoulda.
And I've never really reflected back on that because once we left that breakfast, you know, we were walking three feet off the ground.
And our passion, our excitement, our hope, let's call it renewed hope that maybe we could salvage our business and pivot and recreate another opportunity is all that it took to charge us up.
And what happened is that two weeks later the angel investor out of Boston was coming down and he knew nothing about any of this.
And so we spent those two weeks really priming the pump with each other.
What this could mean.
We obviously completed the decision tree we prototyped with the screens would look like so that we were equipped to express our enthusiasm and let's call it new discovery of an opportunity to the investor in the hope with no certainty, obviously, but the hope of re enthusing him to stick with us.
I don't think we let any negative things enter into ourselves at that point.
It was pure, idealistic, unadulterated enthusiasm and determination.
So to answer your question, yeah, you have to have a good idea, but there's a lot of good ideas out there, as we all know.
But people have to execute it.
And I think that the passion and their ability to express that in a manner such that the value gets through to other people that you're expressing it to comes across.
And so it's a combination of many things.
It's kind of like a, I don't know, cornucopia of elements that are required in order to just, you know, move to the next, next level.
You know, there's.
I am athletic and I like to use athletic analogies from time to time.
You know, the way to a touchdown, yes, there's the occasional Hail Mary pass, but those are pretty much last minute efforts.
The way to get touchdowns is 10 yards at a time.
And so, you know, we knew we had moved 10, if not 20 yards further and we were determined to get to that end zone and we did.

Omer (11:14.880)
How long were you working on the business before you sold it?

Mike Muhney (11:20.160)
Well, if you include the nine months of development from that breakfast on and then releasing the product, almost seven years.

Omer (11:29.280)
Yeah.
And I think there's an important lesson there.
I think you Know, these days, maybe some people, you know, come up with an idea, but they don't have that passion for it, and they're maybe focused more on how much money they can make from it.
But a lot of the times that, you know, when I've seen a truly successful business, it takes many years to build.
And if you don't have that passion for what you're doing, it becomes really hard to keep going every day and.
And to put in, I guess, the amount of energy and.
And enthusiasm it needs to.
To actually grow.
So you made the exit.
You sold for about.
Was it $40 million?

Mike Muhney (12:12.690)
No.
47.
40.

Omer (12:14.370)
Okay.
And then how much of the business did you own at the time?

Mike Muhney (12:19.250)
10%.

Omer (12:20.370)
Okay.
So you walked away with just under 5 million.

Mike Muhney (12:24.210)
Yes.

Omer (12:25.170)
And so how did life change for you and your family after that?

Mike Muhney (12:30.370)
Good and bad?
The good was there was, obviously, for the first time in my life, a sense of financial independence, the ability to kind of live my own life and do the things that I wanted to do.
And those were things like typical vacations and stuff like that, buying a new car that we all kind of do.
But it was just a sense of that independence.
That was a good feeling.
But the downside of it was, and this was observed over time, it certainly wasn't an immediate thing, but I had young children at the time, and when you have means and they know you've got some means now, there's no reason for you to say no.
And I had to struggle with my kids as they grew older to not have a sense of entitlement and to work hard, that the journey was more important than the destination.
And so there were life lessons I had to apply to them and help them understand.
And I'll give you an example.
My Michael, the actor we talked about, he was still in College at DePaul University's theater school up in Chicago.
And he asked me one day if I could give him a million dollars in a trust fund so that he could, when he graduated, have the means to pursue his dream of being an actor.
Because at that time, there was no income and no job, and he didn't know what to expect.
And I literally had to say to him, no, I will not do that, and I'm not going to do it, because I don't think you'll work as hard or be as determined to succeed and fight the fight you're going to have to fight every day if you have that safety net.
You know, I didn't have one, and I don't want you to have One and he didn't like the answer, but he was obviously an adult as a college student and he said, dad, I really do appreciate you doing that for me by not giving me the money.
And I agree with you.
And he, everything that he's done as an actor, he's earned on his own 100%.
I mean, from scratch.
And I'm even more proud of him because of that.
And I know he is himself more importantly than he would have otherwise been.
So those are just a couple of the differences.
The third one I might mention, Omer, over time I began to feel a sense of, oh, I don't know, unimportance, uninvolvement, fading away.
Because ACT was such a successful experience in my life.
I mean, we literally walked on a red carpet.
Everybody was using it in the industry and outside of the high tech industry.
I mean, we were basically celebrities.
And I truly do mean that in the high tech industry.
I mean, I was speaking all over the world at major conferences, etc.
A lot of exposure, a lot of wow, you're the guy.
And you know, so you get the accolades and, and then you sell your company and it's gone.
And you kind of take a risk.
You get off the fast train for a while, but then you miss the action.
And I just felt that I was empty.
And for a period of time, Omer, I would say I was even a little bit despondent.
And I don't mean that in any negative way or I had to see a psychiatrist or anything.
It's just that my sense of self worth and value began to erode and I didn't have those same feelings that I had in building something that was part of my creation and from my own loins and seeing the world adopt it and love it.
So it was a day and night, stark contrast mental and emotional condition that I had to struggle with after the sale of ACT during the ensuing years

Omer (16:14.870)
after the sale, because you want the, the guy anymore that people would talk to or I guess, yeah, I guess the sort of.
The party had moved on, right?

Mike Muhney (16:27.630)
Yeah, it had.
I mean, and like, you hit it on the head, the life does move on.
And over time you begin to fade away.
And you know, I'm always reminded of General MacArthur's speech at West Point.
Right.
I'm just an old soldier that will fade away.
And that's kind of how I began to feel.
And so those feelings got to a point where I had to get back in the game.
I didn't want to be, you know, not going to the game.
I didn't want to be in the grandstands watching a game.
I wanted to be in the game.
And so I, you know, started another company that got my enthusiasm up equally as much in a completely different arena.
But 18 months later, I had to shut it down.
But at least for those 18 months, I was riding high again on something that was a whole lot of fun and just enabled me to not worry about sleeping or taking a shower every day.
I mean, in the early days of starting a company, you work your 20 hour days and that's all you can think of.
Right.
But I was back in that, wow, I'm at it again.
And I had that.
And you can hear it in my tone, that sense of going back and tapping into my reservoir of wanting to create and the sheer joy of just the effort in attempting to do so.
If anything came of it, so much the better.
But there is a lot of joy in just trying to execute on your own idea and enthusiasm.

Omer (17:57.690)
Sort of beyond that.
The business that you just talked about that you started, was there any other business that you launched or did you not sort of do anything in terms of starting your own thing until 2010?

Mike Muhney (18:13.050)
Yeah.
Okay, so we sold act in June of 1993, and by the end summer of June, June, July, time frame of 96.
So this is a three year journey, if you will, to get to this point.
I had invested in the Michael Jordan golf company.
And it was a new company founded by the ex EVP of Jack Nicklaus's company.
Michael was riding high in basketball back then, and as an investor, I got to hang around with him a little bit, which was cool.
I don't want to certainly say that I knew him well, I didn't.
But I got to be around him.
And as I observed the immense indescribable adulation, I thought, there's a business opportunity here and I have access to him.
And I came up with the company that I called Celebrity Soft.
And what it was going to be was I was going to create unique games with already branded individuals.
And there's a lot of marketing behind this, what I won't get into unless you want me to.
But there was.
This was going to be a marketing bonanza.
And it wasn't to create a game for Michael Jordan playing basketball.
How boring would that be?
Michael's love was golf.
And so I was going to create this fantasy golf game where the, you know, like kind of a Flash Gordon, if you will, Star wars, whatever, where the ball would go through that first hole and would go down to the middle of the earth and there'd be creatures and, you know, it would be a real test to get through 18 holes of the Michael, you know, of the game, right?
And I went after his agent, David Falk.
And it so happened that David Falk, who was a super agent back then with all the, you know, Patrick Ewing, the best NBA players, his company was actually using ACT to keep track of all of their clients, which just helped my case a little bit.
And he said, okay, let's proceed.
I like this idea.
And so I had thought I had secured Michael Jordan and had put contracts together, etc.
And I proceeded to talk to John Romero, the creator of do, and John liked the idea so much, he was going to put in a million dollars and provide me the game developers.
And I also went after Charles Barkley on my own.
Michael didn't make any introduction to Charles.
And I signed up Charles Barkley also and gave him a percentage of the company, as I had with Michael.
Just sweat equity, because they were great window dressing, if you will.
I knew I was going to do all the work.
David Mitchell, Muhammad Ali's agent during this process, also called me and wanted Muhammad to be part of this.
So you can already tell how much fun it's getting to be, right?
I mean, this was cool, but anyway.
And Ross Perot Jr. Who David Falk, Michael's agent, contacted Russ and said, you need to talk to this kid.
As he called me, he's got a great idea that you might want to get in on.
And Russ Perot said he wanted to put in $3 million.
And so, you know, I was lining up the money, I was lining up the developers, I was lining up the business.
And I do want to make a quick comment going back to an earlier comment of yours.
As an entrepreneur, you know, you have to make a decision, are you building a product or are you building a business?
In my case, with ACT and Celebrity Soft and what I'm doing with VIP Orbit software today, I'm building a business, not a product, but getting back to it.
So what happened, Omer, is I was really meeting some very interesting people during this 18 months, but Michael never signed the contract.
And it always perplexed me because David said, oh, he's going to do it.
He's going to do it.
Don't worry about it.
Just keep on going.
Well, long and short of it is, I got a call one day from David and Michael Jordan told him to tell me and two other companies that he had sweat equity in that he was no longer interested in being involved with this and didn't give any reason.
And I won't tell you what David Faulk said.
It's not very polite, but there was something that was kind of, I don't know, disparaging toward Michael's attitude because I think David saw opportunity here.
But when you're as famous and as wealthy as Michael Jordan, you want cash, you want the adulation.
And he wasn't even going to do anything.
I had eight hours of his time contractually every year.
I mean, eight hours, that's nothing.
But when Michael fell away, the whole business collapsed and Ross Perot pulled out.
John Romero faded away and I had to shut the business down.
And it could have been a lot of fun.
Obviously there's a lot more to it.
And I was back to square one.
So kind of a roller coaster ride.
And then what happened?
Two years later I got a call from Deloitte Consulting because of my ACT credential.
And now the emergence of the CRM industry, primarily with Siebel Systems, right, that now Oracle owns.
But Siebel really started Tommy Siebel the true enterprise aspect of relationship management.
And they asked me if I would be one of their three global spokesmen to promote their CRM practice with my credentials.
Obviously that gave me an edge as they saw it.
And I accepted a position with them as a senior manager.
I was back in the corporate world, flying all over the world, talking about CRM and again resting on the accolades of act.
ACT was still on the market, it still is today, in fact, but it was still relatively fresh and people were, you know, it was fun to meet me and I had fun meeting them, but it wasn't mine anymore, right?
And I did my job and I enjoyed it, but it wasn't with the same passion that I had with either ACT or Celebrity Soft.
But I stayed there for a while and did my thing.
And then I got recruited to work as the EVP for the corporation and the general manager of all international operations for SalesLogix.
CRM company already publicly traded on NASDAQ.
And I did that for a few years, but then they got taken off of the market by Sage out of the uk and after the transition, all the management got fired.
So, you know, I was management, I got fired and I was back to square one again.
And then, you know, I mean, I had my finger involved in a few other things.
I've got some investments, obviously I sit on some boards, but again, they weren't my thing.
It wasn't my creation.
It Wasn't my idea.
That drove me at a level that working for somebody else can't be achieved.
As if it, you know, is your own idea.
And so what happened to bring up.
Bring you up to date Omer with VIP Orbit Software and our product name is Vyper V I P o R. In 2004 I abandoned windows and you know, as a Windows product.
Started off as dos, but it was Windows product.
And I got tired of it.
I got tired of act, the sage, the owner of act, who knew that I was still made me pay for a copy every year.
And I consider that a slap in the face.
And that along with a few other reasons, I said, I'm going Apple, my friends are getting Apple Macs, I want to get a Mac, I'm going to make the change.
And I did.
And so I didn't want to be anything but a purist with Apple.
I didn't want to run Fusion, for example, so that I could run ACT under the Windows simulator on it.
And so I had to get used to iCal and Apple's address book, which was a far cry from what drove me to succeed and what I as a user of ACT as well, wanted to have at my fingertips.
But I got used to it.
There was really no choice.
There wasn't much at all on the market.
Fast forward to 2007.
I got the first iPhone.
And fast forward to November of 2009.
Sitting in my home office in my robe, I was reading my hard copy issue of BusinessWeek magazine and the COVID story was Apps and was all about this changing economy, how it's going to change our lives, the business opportunities and Omer, when I was done reading that article, I literally stood up and using some four letter words, I just basically said, holy.
You know what?
I'm tired of waiting around for somebody to do this.
I need it myself.
I know how to build a company, I know how to design software, I know what it should do, I know how to raise money, et cetera, et cetera.
I'm going to start a company again.
Back to where I was on that famous Brainstorm breakfast with Pat to create act.
What became ACT was that same sense of I need it myself, it doesn't exist, so damn it, I'm going to do it.
And I did.
And that was back in late 2009.
I incorporated the company as a C corp in February of 2010 and still at it today, trying to make a go of it.
So that's kind of a quarter journey, quarter tour journey of my career.

Omer (27:10.960)
If you Will, that's quite a roller coaster ride.

Mike Muhney (27:13.840)
It is.

Omer (27:15.280)
You know, I'm wondering, that was almost 17 years after you sold ACT.
Why do you think it took so long for you to get to that point of, of creating your own thing again?

Mike Muhney (27:31.080)
Well, good question.
And I at times have thought about that, especially during the times before I had another idea that being celebrity soft or Viper, I had a hard time coming up with another idea, as funny as that sounds.
I mean, an idea that can be executed and that can have the global reach that I've experienced with ACT kind of set a baseline or standard for me, if you will.
I mean, I didn't want to settle for anything that couldn't be huge.
No, I think most entrepreneurs probably want everything that they do to be huge, don't get me wrong.
But some products are industry specific or whatever, very high priced and knowingly focused on a very small segment of a market and they can do well in that.
My view though, because of the ACT experience was the world is my stage and I don't want to settle for anything less than what I could make another huge impact with to the world.
And so maybe I put some shekels on myself, self imposed, but it's also that thing that just kept me at it and that churning, that unsettledness in my gut, in my mind and my emotions, that emptiness at times still in its own way were catalysts to continue that feeling of I got to get beyond this.
And so that's one of the reasons Omer is I didn't want to settle for anything less.
Number two though, because of ACT and the success, immense success of it, I kind of was compartmentalized, if you will.
My area of expertise was relationship management.
Going outside of that would remove me from any ability to stand on that credential and expertise that I was by default given without hesitation by people, obviously because of act, that I couldn't enjoy.
And so I lost leverage.
And so, you know, that also was kind of a boundary of mine, if not an obstacle at the same time.
But again, as I look back on it, it's easy to reflect on it that way.
I guess during that process, as I attempt to reflect back on what it was like day to day, it simply just left me feeling empty.
And in the search for and quest to get back to something that in my mind, as I said at the very beginning, would enable me to achieve all that I'm meant to achieve.
And I don't know what that is, and I won't know until my dying day how close I came to what I'm capable of achieving, etc.
But I'm not after achievement.
I'm after achievement today.
I'm after achievement to look back on at the end of my life whenever that day comes and hope that I did everything possible and you know, in most cases did well.
Just like that baseball analogy, you know, I get a lot of hits and a few home runs.
Life will be good and that drives me.

Omer (30:34.000)
So I wanted to talk a little bit about Viper.
You know this.
My observation is that these days the, the CRM market is pretty crowded.
There are a lot of players in that space and most of them have a, I guess a SaaS version or a web application at the core.
And then they may have some extensions that work on other platforms like Mac or Windows or iOS.
And when I looked at Vyper, I don't think there is a web version.
Right.
I think it's just a client app.

Mike Muhney (31:17.280)
That is correct.
Presently it's iPhone, iPad and Mac native to the device with an automatic sync if you've got, you know, two or all three of those Apple kind of devices.
So we use the cloud as a conduit for the syncing between your devices, but it is a native app based on the device.
And the reason I did that is two, quite practically speaking.
Number one, I just mentioned a moment ago, Omer, that when I read that BusinessWeek article and I had the iPhone in my hand, something I could have only lusted for back in the act era, to have everything I know about everybody, I know anything and everything about kind of my on demand instant recall photographic memory executive assistant, if you will.
I couldn't believe that it didn't exist.
And so the first product that I raised money for was to produce an iPhone version because the iPhone was still only 2 years old.
Had a long way to go as we all can reflect back on how well it has done.
And that was really part of the limit of the vision at the time.
Not that there wasn't more, of course there was.
But it was really to get an iPhone version, as that happened.
Then Apple announced the iPad.
Okay, so now I raised more money to produce an iPad and you know, developing even for a native app with the sophistication of what Vyper is, there's a lot of plumbing to it.
It's not just a superficial one dimension kind of app, which most apps are.
It is a full fledged application.
And so it was expensive to develop.
And then of course our customers were saying, well, where's your Mac version?
So there's the third version.
And all of that was done serially, not out of necessarily intent, but based on limited funds with which to develop.
If I was venture capital funded and had 10, $20 million in the bank, I would have come out with all of them right away.
Why wouldn't I?
But I also looked at the Apple world as a world that had a dearth of solutions of this type.
And that I couldn't believe because Apple, you know, as we all know, is very successful and is infiltrating every walk of life today, even enterprises that have historically been Windows only.
So I saw the Apple world community of users as a huge opportunity in and of itself.
During that time, though, the vision has continued to expand, as is the nature of things.
And so to get to your point, I have a lot of people saying, when are you going to come out with an Android version?
Well, you and I both know there's no single Android.
It's open source and from a development standpoint, a nightmare.
So the only way to get to it, and we do have on our roadmap to develop what will be known as Vyperweb so that now I will be device agnostic and can reach Windows, Android and all Apple users via the web.
But Apple will always have a special place because we build natively for that as well.
We have been in development with a product that will be out this fall that will take it from single user to, and I'm going to be a little bit opaque here, but a very unique twist on sharing information and I'll kind of just leave it at that, but let's call it multi user but not in the traditional sense that you might think of it.
And I'd also like to comment on your comment about CRM.
I thought the same thing and I do think the world thinks the same thing, that CRM is pretty much everywhere.
And what stunned me, and I will admit it's about three years old by now, but three years ago Forrester Research came out with a study on the CRM industry.
And in their research, however, they calculated it, but as Forrester, they did it a lot better than I might thumbnail do it.
They determined that of all of the CRM vendors in the world, and we're talking Microsoft, CRM, Siebel Sugar, CRM Act Goldmine, all of them combined, there were less than 14 million people in the world using CRM.
14 million.
Not 140 million, not 1.4 billion.
14 million.
And I thought, oh my gosh, Salesforce was included in that.
Obviously Right.

Omer (35:59.120)
What year was that from?

Mike Muhney (36:00.800)
Three years ago.

Omer (36:01.840)
Wow.

Mike Muhney (36:02.720)
Yeah.
So let's just argue in the last three years from that 14 million base that I'll just throw out a number.
50 million.
Probably not 50 million, but I'll give you 50 million.
Well, there's over a billion users of iPhones alone.
Let's just stick to Apple.
Okay.
Half of them are kids, so that still leaves a market of 500 million.
Okay.
Half of those are elderly people.
Okay.
It still leaves 250 million for an iPhone alone.
Right.
You add the Mac, etc.
So however you compare the numbers to CRM, there is huge opportunity.
And that was part of what I expanded the vision with because of.
Because CRM, I would argue on one hand, Omer has failed miserably in reaching the world.
If they're such value in relationship management, why aren't more people in the world using it?
Well, they aren't because it's expensive.
It's overkill.
People's own attitude, you know, everybody sells, in my opinion.
Everybody.
You might be an architect, but you sell your services because you've got architects that are competitors.
So why should I select you or a doctor, lawyer?
Everybody sells.
So, and in order to sell, you have a network of people you connect with, both business and personal.
Right.
You're building your base, so to speak, of where you can go to, you know, hopefully be successful in your career.
Well, that comes back to people.
And when you deal with people, you deal with activities.
So what?
I don't like saying that Vyper is CRM.
The only reason I do is because of SEO today.
And I don't like SEO on the one hand, because I would like to create a new category of software that I would put Vyper in, but nobody would think to type it in.
And I wouldn't be on any result of a search.
So that's why I designed it to say, a simpler CRM.
So there's a lot of variables that have gone into the whys and hows in order to penetrate the market, but the vast majority of the world still is doing it the old fashioned way.
In fact, most people don't know this either.
But the number one contact manager in the world, at least from a business standpoint, is Excel spreadsheets.
And when I think of, oh my gosh, people are trying to run their business on Excel spreadsheets.
You've got to be kidding me.
You know, so yeah, yeah, there is a lot of opportunity and there's a lot of room for growth.
And so, you know, can you give

Omer (38:34.540)
me maybe one example of how Vyper is, is better than maybe other alternatives.
When you talked about simpler, so what does that mean, being simpler?

Mike Muhney (38:45.220)
Okay, well, let me establish a baseline here.
So the concept or the architectural underpinning of Viper is built on orbits.
That's why it's called VIP Orbit software.
And an orbit can literally be anything you want, and I mean anything.
Your imagination is the determinant of what an orbit can be.
But typically there are areas of the country.
So I've got 62 orbits.
I've got everybody I know in Chicagoland, Silicon Valley, New York City, et cetera.
I've got my golfing buddies orbit.
I've got my board of directors orbit, I've got my investors orbit.
I've got strategic alliances, everybody I know at Apple.
So an orbit can be temporary or permanent, can be anything you want, and people can be in unlimited orbits.
Right.
So one of the things that is different about it is that most of the products we use today, and I'm going to speak at a general level, LinkedIn certainly isn't, in my opinion, a relationship manager.
Even if it was, most people aren't using it as that.
And even if you did, it's $45 a month.
Most people aren't going to spend 45 bucks a month as an individual, but it's not a very good one.
And it's only limited to everybody in LinkedIn.
But it's business only.
Facebook, for the most part, I'm just going to describe as a personal.
Yes, I know businesses can have their Facebook page.
We do, but it's pretty much personal.
So now I'm using two applications, some of which has redundancy of the very same people.
Right.
But I've got to go to each application to do different things with.
You know, then there's Twitter and other products.
So what's happened in the world we live in today, Omer, is we are having to go to a multitude of applications to do a certain thing.
And like I said earlier, most apps are one dimensional or it's not very deep, not very broad.
Viper is one solution that manages both my business and my personal networks.
And since people can be in unlimited orbits, some of my golfing buddies are also some customers.
And now it's also what you can do with an Orbit.
It's not just categorizing people.
You know, I'm after very practical things.
I'm a user too.
I've never taken that mantle off.
I want to use this in the most lazy way I can in the most efficient way I can.
And so people in an orbit, you can send a group email to or a group text, but it goes to them as an individual, which maintains more of the personal relationship.
It also automatically archives in each of their records, curates, if you will, that event occurring.
So I literally have a true curated, documented, chronologically listed, most recently the oldest list of everything I've done with or for you.
I mean, that's why I say I wanted an on demand, instant recall, photographic memory, like executive assistant.
You can select subsets of people in an orbit.
I can schedule group, you know, conference calls.
It's what I can do with an orbit that makes it so powerful in one solution for my entire business and personal life.
And that's Fyper in a nutshell.

Omer (41:58.430)
So it sounds like you're, you're targeting.
There's a space that almost Viper seems to be filling, which is it can potentially appeal to people who are, I guess, at the lower end, where maybe they're using that Excel spreadsheet today and they need something more sophisticated to go beyond just contact, contact management and to sort of develop those relationships.
And then I guess there's this sort of like people who are maybe using a CRM product today, but maybe want something simpler, maybe.
It sounds like there's a gap there somewhere that you're trying to fill.
Am I kind of going in the right direction here?

Mike Muhney (42:44.720)
Oh, no, absolutely.
There's a huge gap.
So if you think of a pyramid, and let's go back to, let's just throw out a number, let's say that there's 1 billion people in the world today that are a potential target audience.
One billion.
That's a pretty big market, you know, I mean, because again, regardless of the type of job you have, regardless of the industry you're in, regardless of where you live on this earth, our lives are integrated and intertwined with other people.
And especially as you consider it from a business perspective, you've got to continually expand, develop, sustain, grow, et cetera, your networks, from which you have a reservoir, if you will, from which you can make a living and hopefully a very successful one.
But without a network, none of us gets anywhere, right?
I mean, if there were no people like me to talk to, if you just said, I want to produce podcasts, but there was nobody to produce podcasts with.
Great idea, but you need a market, right?
So it's a huge market.
And so at the very top of that pyramid are those what I gave you 50 million.
It's probably more like 30 million today.
Maybe, but let's say 50 million and then the wide base of the pyramid are people using in the Apple world, since I'm still Apple only iCal and the built in, you know, address book contacts, right?
Well, those don't, those don't even know that each other exists.
If I schedule this podcast with you, it's just text.
There is no Omer Khan.
Right.
I've got to go to my address book to get your phone number and email address.
Right?
So the two don't even connect.
So it's that huge gap between in a large sense, in a macro sense, if you will.
Now I can continue to refine it and define it, but yes, it's a huge gap to go after.
And I like to say I didn't make up the same, but I do like to say that your net worth, ultimately, however you define that Omer is ultimately tied to and inextricably linked with the quality and extent of your networks.
They are not mutually exclusive.
One truly determines the other and could not exist without the other.
So how are you managing yourself?
Right?
How do you distinguish yourself that, you know, the problem in the ACT era, again, different era.
And as people think about, you know, a relationship management or CRM kind of a product, you know, people think, well, it allows me to remember data, collect data.
Okay, so, you know, you like to play golf, for example, if you know that's something you did.
Right, Okay, I remembered that.
But that's not what any of these products need to be about.
And I think CRM, by the way, which is company only and only good for customers and prospects.
If you're not a customer prospect, there's nowhere to put you.
Right.
Are other people not important?
No, everybody matters, right?
So there's nowhere to put them.
And that was the dilemma I faced with conceiving and what I wanted VIPER to do.
I wanted it to manage my entire life, business and personal, in one solution, with no regard, no boundaries, inside my company, out personal or business, who cares anymore, Right?

Omer (45:55.870)
I get it, I get it.
So it's not really about customer relationship management, it's about people relationship management.

Mike Muhney (46:01.830)
Well, yes.
And I will say one more thing though, and I think very few people consider this, you know, in today's world with Google and LinkedIn, you know, and remember I said earlier, everybody sells.
And why do we have to have that mental and understanding and embrace it, in fact, is because we all have competition.
We all do.
No matter how good we are, we all have competition.
Well, how are you distinguishing yourself from your competition?
Is one of the ways that you start to, you know, get ahead in winning the hearts and minds of people in today's world.
Since me and all my competitors, all of our competitors, we all have.
Have the same access to the same information that we each put out there in our LinkedIn page and Facebook page, etc.
Doesn't distinguish any of it.
So how do I do that?
How do I go about that?
And in that effort, it's not just collecting data, it's understanding the value of the data such that I make something with it.
So to give you an example, let's say I walked into your office, Omer, and let's say there was picture of you on a beautiful sailboat.
Right?
First words out of my mouth.
And I'm going to record that you have.
You're a boat owner.
Okay, great.
I'm going to put that in my Viper database or Salesforce or whatever, my Excel spreadsheet.
That's not what's important.
What's important is to start to get you to talk about what you love.
Right.
So, Omer, is that your boat?
Yeah, it is.
I've had it for three years, man.
It's my.
It's my dream come true, really.
What have you done with it so far?
Oh, I've sailed it to Hawaii and, you know, up and down the east coast and notice how we're starting to just, I don't know, engage and have a camaraderie, and that's what these products are for.
And so Viper and other products that people can use to, you know, keep track of people and activity data really is meant to help you engage better with people.
And in doing so, now I'm beginning to distinguish myself from competition.
But to your.
To add to your point, yes, it's about relationship management.
Although I will say I don't think anybody can really manage a relationship.
I can't manage you any more than you can manage me.
So the only thing that I really can manage and what it also is truly about is what I call reputation management.
Because, you know, there's two things, at least in business to succeed well, you know, there's more.
You got to be smart and you got a good product.
I mean, I get all that.
But two fundamental things, two cornerstones, if you will, and the one is in distinguish me myself, I've got to have those networks, right?
That's number one.
Number two, I've got to work on the things that, in your mind, help you formulate an impression of me that differentiates me from my competition.
In other words, I can, to a degree, but not entirely distinguish myself from competition.
Oh, we're better.
We're cheaper.
Well, okay, great.
I'll check that out, you know, in a heartbeat on the Internet today.
But it's your determination that.
You know what?
I just like the.
I like what Mike said.
I like the way he conducted himself.
I enjoyed being with him.
You know, I could see having a beer with him.
You know, those are the things that begin to move you apart from competition and those kinds of things.
Talking about you going to Hawaii, you know, on your sailboat or whatever, whatever you did, that's in addition to what you've publicly put out there.
Those are the things that I try to find out, because if they're not out there, that means my competition doesn't know it.
And it makes me.
It ups my chances of getting a little bit closer to you because you've let me more into your world because I expressed interest in it and enthusiasm about it.
Right.

Omer (49:46.060)
Yep.

Mike Muhney (49:46.540)
And so these are some of the.
You know, I mean, I.
Some of it might sound counterintuitive, but I don't think even today, including many CRM users who use it more rote than anything else.
And by the way, it's just a management tool anyway, and people know that, so they really put in as little as they can.
And I know this for a fact because they tell me to keep management off their back.
It's not used in the way that it's designed, because unlike a spreadsheet or a Word doc or whatever, a PowerPoint product, this is about people.
And people have hearts and people have minds and everybody's unique.
And therein lies the art of all of this.
In using a tool to help you remember the uniquenesses of all of your relationships so that you always improve your chances of getting that home run.
Are you going to get a.
No.
I'm going to strike out sometimes even with a great product.
But I'm going to improve my chances of being a home run hitter.
And I like to say Omer.
You know, I think most people.
And I'm not disparaging on anybody, don't get me wrong, I'm just trying to make a contrast here.
I think most people in business obviously want to do well.
I think they think for the most part that they're doing the best that they can and they use what they know to be available to help them.
But a lot of people are, you know, simply 250 batters.
Right.
Their batting average.
Well, if I can take you from a 250 to a.350 lifetime batting average, you're going to be a Hall of Famer.
I'm not talking about making you be a thousand percent home run every time you get up to the plate.
That's not life.
But if I can improve you by 100 basis points or more, you're going to be wildly successful.
And that's kind of how I view all of this.
It's designed for people that understand the value of building, professionally building, sustainable, interactive relationships that have their own ebb and flow over our lives, period.
I mean, we're all the same.
The longer we've been in business and the older we get.
Some people come and go, but some people from long ago reappear again.
Right?
And isn't it great to pick up right where you left off, as if there was never a gap?
I mean, it's because of the ability to recall or even remember them, because you've got them in your database to stay in touch with yourself.
You know, those are all little techniques.
And so there's a lot to it.
Obviously.

Omer (52:07.800)
You know, the thing that strikes me is that, I mean, first of all, Mike, you have this amazing story.
To have built this phenomenally successful product with ACT all those years ago, to have had a successful exit, become a multimillionaire, you know, early on in your career, or relatively early on, and then despite the sort of the roller coaster ride of the businesses that you talked about, to get to a point where, again, you have something that is your own and it came from a moment of inspiration and you're incredibly passionate about it.
I can hear it in your voice in terms of how passionate and excited you are.
And I think a lot of people listening to this would say, well, it's okay for Mike, you know, he's.
He's kind of things.
Things sort of eventually go the right way for him.
But I'm here, I'm struggling.
I'm dealing with all kinds of head trash.
And the interesting thing was that when we spoke earlier, before we started recording, you told me that you still struggle with those kinds of things in your own mind as well.
Even today.

Mike Muhney (53:20.290)
I do.
I think even more so for a number of reasons.
Number one, I'm older, I have less time.
I'm not a millennial.
I don't have the luxury of another 20, 30, 40 years to look out.
Tie that to the attitude I've expressed that I've not yet achieved what I think I'm capable of.
And I'm in that quest to discover it.
And so, you know, time is of the essence.
It's obviously more valuable to me, with less of it ahead in my life than younger people.
But it is a younger person's world, too, as we, you know, most people know.
That's just the way of generations.
You know, we all had our time when we were in college and out of college and changing the world.
Well, younger people are changing the world today, and I'm having to adapt to some of those things.
So one of the ways I describe it, or think of it myself, as an entrepreneur, all entrepreneurs have this ungarnished enthusiasm.
It's infinitesimal.
We have to have that.
We've got to express that passion and get people stirred up.
But I call that the front office, but there's the back office, the inner thinking.
What's really down in your gut that you're not wanting to share with people that you're afraid of?
I'm scared.
There's part of every day that I live and doing what I'm doing now, and I did with Act 2 and Celebrity Soft.
It doesn't change based on the product, but nonetheless, it's a very competitive world.
I wish I had more money so I could do more things like come out with ViperWeb tomorrow.
As we discussed, I'm limited by that.
Time is marching on.
Competition is ever encroaching.
I'm not achieving what I want to achieve.
Can I raise enough money to make payroll six months from now?
I need more developers, blah, blah, blah.
I mean, I wake up every morning both enthused and excited about another day to continue to construct what this company and my life is meant to be and to reach more of the market.
But I'm also afraid.
It's a difficult world to be discovered in, and it costs a lot of money to be discovered.
My biggest obstacle, which contributes to a big fear, is because I don't have enough money to advertise.
Most of the world doesn't even know I exist.
And so, despite having what I think is a great product, if the world doesn't know you exist, that great product is never going to come to fruition.
How are my investors looking at me?
Are they satisfied with my pace?
How am I dealing with the obstacles?
There's just always something and there is fear.
Elements of fear each and every day of what I do.
And I've got to get through those and basically kind of a damn the torpedoes full speed ahead, Omer.
And I don't want to say deal with it.
I don't.
You know, maybe we could argue you can deal with It.
I know they exist.
I have to continue doing what I'm doing in the best manner possible despite those fears.
Right.
There's a. I don't know if I can remember top my head here, but it reminds me of a famous quote by Winston Churchill.
He said something like, fear is not the.
No, courage is not the absence of fear, but simply the recognition of it or something like that.
Right.
So I recognize it, but I don't let it stop me.
But it's there and it's there very evidently in my mind and in my thinking, and sometimes it does slow me down in moving ahead, but I still have to anyway.
So, yeah, I'm like everybody else.
I. I'm human.
I'm afraid of failure.
I don't want to fail.
And, you know, but like I said, in an odd way, some of those things, as bad as they sound, also act as a catalyst toward the positive.

Omer (57:21.760)
Yeah.
I think someone once said to me that, you know, having those, those fears and worries is just.
It's a natural human emotion and it's just probably a lot more prevalent when it comes to entrepreneurs.
And it's not about not having those thoughts.
It's more about choosing how you react to those thoughts and what you do next.

Mike Muhney (57:47.340)
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
I do a fair amount of public speaking, invariably on the topic of the illusion of relationships that we have in today's world, primarily due to social media, which I think ought to be called social me, because it's all about me.
And relationship management in its general form is really about you, as I've described.
But I like to tell people, you know, like anybody else, I like to go and hear a great speaker, somebody that's famous, you know, and of course, you're, you're both in two great companies yourself, you know, the Walt Disney.
And I can imagine if you ever got to be around Walt Disney himself, people would be inspired, just like Steve Jobs.
And of course, you were at Microsoft and Bill Gates.
Right.
And as much as I would love to hear them speak and would enjoy it and I would assume walk away with some nuggets, that would be helpful to me.
The problem is I cannot relate to people like that.
I mean, I don't think it is my destiny to be another Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or a Walt Disney.
That's not my life.
Okay.
Certain things we have to accept, but I don't still know what it is.
I want to get to where it was meant to be.
So what I like to do and the people I can relate to and learn more from are what I call just the common man, the common woman, the people that are every day fighting the good fight because it's common people that produce uncommon or extraordinary things.
Those people I can relate to and their stories of struggle and working through it and what they face day to day encouraged me and inspired me more than hearing a great speaker who may in fact be a hypocrite in real life.
And we'll never know because we adulate, you know, celebrities, right or wrong, good or bad.
Right.

Omer (59:39.080)
Yeah.
I think it goes back to what you said about just doing everything you can to realize your own potential and.
And regardless of how old or young someone is, you know, I think the quote that you started with is actually a good way to kind of wrap up on this that, you know, of as if.
Let me get this right.
Of all sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these.
It might have been.

Mike Muhney (1:00:08.530)
Yes.

Omer (1:00:08.930)
Right.
So whatever you do, just do, do, do what you have to do.
So you don't have any regrets?

Mike Muhney (1:00:16.550)
Absolutely.
100%.
I mean, you know, God willing, at the end of my life, I'll.
I'll be surrounded by loved ones.
And as I, you know, laying there knowing my end is near, and I'm not trying to be cliche ish here or anything.
I'm just trying to imagine, I hope to be able to look back on my life and say, you know, I didn't achieve everything I set out to do, but I gave it my best and I did try, as opposed to being afraid not to try and regretting what could have been.
And that's why that quote encourages me, because something that I do put my heart, mind, and soul behind and into completely.
I want to give it my best shot.
And if it fails, okay, it failed.
But I wouldn't consider that.
I wouldn't consider me a failure in that regard.
And so what I guess, to distinguish it to finish up here, Omer, is there's a difference between doing something that fails and being a failure yourself.
And I refuse to allow myself in any time, way, shape, or form to emotionally, mentally allow myself to potentially be a failure as a human being.

Omer (1:01:27.350)
I love that.
I love that.
All right, let's finish up with the lightning round.
I'm going to ask you a series of questions and just answer them as quickly as you can.

Mike Muhney (1:01:38.300)
Okay?

Omer (1:01:39.020)
What's the best piece of business advice that you ever received?

Mike Muhney (1:01:42.380)
Well, as funny as it sounds, and I'll go back to the act, Eric, because it certainly changed my life.
That first product that failed, I went to a CEO of Computer Store Organization.
54 stores across the country in the era where that you had to go to store to buy a PC.
And I told him we were almost out of money and what should we do?
And he's the one that said, you two guys are smart guys.
Why don't you go have a rainstorm breakfast.
It's going to be July 4th next week.
Spend eight till noon.
And asking a simple question that humbled was humbling and admitted failure.
Right.
Of a product.
We took his advice and having done so, obviously it changed my own life and it changed the world.

Omer (1:02:25.120)
That really was great advice.

Mike Muhney (1:02:26.800)
Yeah, it was.

Omer (1:02:29.120)
Okay.
What book would you recommend to our audience and why?

Mike Muhney (1:02:33.160)
Well, no, good question.
Since I'm always about relationships and what I've done in my career, I can't think of a better book than Judy Robinette's that's with two T's at the end.
Judy Robinette's how to be a power connector.
The 550/100 rule for turning your business network into profits.
I read that book.
She is probably matter of fact I would put her in a class of her own.
She stands alone in the practical sense of how to view and develop and sustain your networks of relationships and how to achieve greater success as a result.
So I would highly recommend her book.

Omer (1:03:13.560)
What's one attribute or characteristic in your mind of a successful entrepreneur?

Mike Muhney (1:03:18.120)
Oh boy, there isn't one.
But just looking at myself, sheer determination, just determine, determine.
I mean truly exceptionally determined to bust down walls and make a difference, make an impact.
Anything short of that is less than what could otherwise be achieved.

Omer (1:03:41.450)
What's your favorite personal productivity tool or

Mike Muhney (1:03:44.170)
habit need you ask me?
Omer?

Omer (1:03:47.610)
Well, I was hoping you would tell me something.

Mike Muhney (1:03:50.490)
Well, I happen to use this product.
The iPhone and the iPad version are free.
The Mac version is an enormous one time cost presently of $20 on the Mac store.
But no, I use Viper.
I'm getting, I'm a user, I want to, you know, I need a tool, the right tool to help me achieve more with less.
Right.
And so yes, of course it's Viper.
It used to be act.
There are many people still using act, obviously, but it's currently Viper.
But other products that I use to not just rest on my own product, I love, I do a lot of presentations so Keynote, obviously Apple's product.
I also use PowerPoint from time to time and Excel.
I do like LinkedIn from the standpoint of establishing a baseline because virtually everybody's out there and you can at least get a sense of them as I did you and you me before this podcast.
Those are the common things I use.

Omer (1:04:48.850)
What's a business idea that you have?
Maybe a crazy idea in your head that you'd love to pursue if you had the extra time?

Mike Muhney (1:04:55.090)
Well, it is a business.
It's a different type of business.
But my second undiscovered or unrealized passion in life is public speaking.
And if I had another life to live, I would pursue being a paid full time public speaker.
And if I had a Walter Mitte life, I had the greatest regard and respect for our military.
And I would love to have been a Navy seal.
Wow.
Yeah.

Omer (1:05:21.650)
What's an interesting or fun fact about you that most people don't know?

Mike Muhney (1:05:25.410)
Well, I was co president of my high school class in Chicago with Kevin Cronin.
And Kevin Cronin is the lead singer of REO Speedwagon.
And Kevin and I are still great friends to this day.

Omer (1:05:39.410)
Very cool.

Mike Muhney (1:05:40.130)
Yeah.

Omer (1:05:41.410)
You are a seriously connected guy.

Mike Muhney (1:05:43.570)
Well, I don't want to say connected.
It's a different realm of the Michael Jordan stuff I could have come into.
I was in a realm where there's people that deal with a lot of zeros at the end of their name and the checks they can write.
And I realized it's a different type of people.
There are a different type of people.
So, whatever, I'm just a common guy.

Omer (1:06:10.350)
And finally, what is one of your most important passions outside of your work?

Mike Muhney (1:06:14.270)
What I try to describe is an enjoyment of other people and learning about them and establishing a likability factor.
Again, my DNA is about relationships.
So, you know, joy in life comes from not only achieving things ourselves and finding self, you know, pleasure in them for what they mean to you individually, but in bringing, you know, joy to other people.
And so, you know, whether it's playing golf and mixing it up with my buddies, you know, being humble, making fun of myself.
I'll say it this way.
I like to produce laughter because laughter is contagious.
No matter who you are, what religion you are, gender you are, orientation you are, none of that matters.
If you can make people laugh, then it's a better place.
And I try to do that all the time.
I think you could probably hear that in my tone because who doesn't like to be around people that make me laugh or I'd like to be around because they do make me feel better as opposed to always having problems and worries.
So.
So that's an attitude.
But a physical thing I do like to do is I do like to play golf, and I took it up late, and I'll never be a very good golfer, but I do have a lot of fun with my buddies because we all mix it up and make fun of each other, which produces that laughter.

Omer (1:07:29.360)
And on that note, I want to thank you for taking the time to join me here today.
I've really enjoyed this conversation and thank you for sharing your story.
And, and it was great.
I mean, I know you've probably told the.
The story of act and what you did there thousands of times, but it was really interesting to hear kind of what happened after and, and sort of the journey you've taken to where you are today and, and the lessons you've learned along the way.
So I. I really appreciate you taking the time to do that and share.
Share your experiences with, with our audience.
Now, if people want to find out more about Viper, they can go to viporbit.com yes.
Or they can just search for Viper in the App Store on their iPhone or iPad.

Mike Muhney (1:08:20.340)
Yes.
Or in the Mac store.
For the Mac version, they want to learn a little bit more about me personally.
They can go to mycomuni1word, m u h n e y.com, mycomunity.com, and if they want to write to me, if somebody has that inkling, just send me an email@mikeiporbit.com and I'd love to engage with you.

Omer (1:08:41.320)
Wonderful, Mike.
Thanks again.
It's been a pleasure.

Mike Muhney (1:08:43.800)
Omer, I'm honored and privileged that you selected me.
You had a lot of options, and so my appreciation is extended back to you as well.
Thank you very much.
It's been my pleasure.

Omer (1:08:53.880)
Thanks a lot.
Cheers.

Mike Muhney (1:08:55.000)
All right.