lempire: From $1K Launch to $26M ARR Profitable SaaS – with Guillaume Moubeche [405]

This is a machine-generated transcript.

[00:00:00] Omer: Welcome to the show.

[00:00:01] Guillaume: Thanks a lot for having me. Omer, it's our five years anniversary, so it's a special date.

[00:00:06] Omer: It is, yeah. I should say welcome back. So you and I were just talking before we, we started recording and we originally did the first version of this interview, the V1 back in September, 2019.

[00:00:20] And so we're coming up to five years and I think it's a great time to, to get together again and, and talk about everything that's been going on and I think your story is very inspirational. I think also that you are very, I, you're an open book that you talk about your, you know, the, the, the revenue and the metrics and all that stuff, but also the struggles.

[00:00:40] And my hope is that we're gonna have lots of founders who are, who are gonna listen to this, get some inspiration, get some ideas, and hopefully accelerate their journey to, you know, where they, where whatever they want to get to.

[00:00:53] Guillaume: So that sound awesome.

[00:00:54] Omer: Cool. So let's I'm gonna ask you the question.

[00:00:57] Do you have a favorite quote, something that inspires or motivates you that you can share with us?

[00:01:00] Guillaume: A quote I love. I think it's like the, the best way to predict the future is to create it.

[00:01:05] Omer: Love that. Yeah.

[00:01:06] Guillaume: And for me, you know, like what, what it represents. It's like usually people are, are gonna be telling you that you can't achieve some stuff just because, you know, they, they believe that they know you.

[00:01:15] But the reality is like most of the things that we thought were impossible to achieve were achieved by people. We're just like big dreamers and optimistic. So if you have an idea, if you want to go for it. Just go for it. You know, life is is way too short to, to waste it on others people's dreams.

[00:01:32] Omer: This is a little bit of a challenge because most of the time I talk to founders and it's like one business, one product, a very easy conversation. But you are now in a place where you're running lempire and it's made up of five different products. Just tell us about what you know overall, what does the business do?

[00:01:51] What are these five products? You know, who, who are you trying to help?

[00:01:55] Guillaume: So, lempire is like a, a street of products that help B2B businesses grow. So it's like pretty simple. Like we really focus on the. How do you acquire customers from, how do you find like a potential prospect to the closing? So that goes through obviously like the outbound part with lemwarm and lemlist.

[00:02:15] So lemwarm is basically a tool that makes sure that your message land up in the inbox rather than in the spam lemlist allows you to find the right decision makers at any company and reach out on multichannel like emails, LinkedIn and phone call. And after that we have Taplio and Tweet Hunter enter, which are like two tools that help you build an audience and build a lot more trust.

[00:02:38] So eventually the type of rates that you get when you're doing outbound will increase a lot when you have an audience and you can build more trust. And at the end we have a lemcal that is a competitor to Calendly, but that helps you reduce. No shows because when someone books a meeting and don't show up, it's really like a, a pain and we wanted to solve that.

[00:02:59] Omer: Cool. It, it's, it's kind of funny that Taplio and Tweet Hunter have kind of broken the branding with lem something, you know, it's like, I'm surprised, you know, Taplio's not Le linked, which would be a terrible name, I think. But anyway, it's like, you know. So give us a sense of the size of the business.

[00:03:18] Where, where are you in terms of revenue, size of team customers?

[00:03:21] Guillaume: Yeah. So we have like we, we are at 26 plus million dollars in annual recurring revenue. We are in more than a hundred countries. It's like tens of thousands of customers worldwide. We target mainly like SMB. Our mantra, I would say, like internally is that we help ambitious businesses turn into big names.

[00:03:42] So typically, for example, we have like some B2B businesses that are like brand of water and that are launching like internationally. And we want to help them like become, let's say the, the new Evian or whatever water, like that could be huge. And we do that like in many categories where basically we, we build product for innovative teams and help them like, grow as fast as possible.

[00:04:05] And in terms of team, we are like very, very lean. So we are around like 90 people which mean that at the end of the year we will be at like $10 million in EBDA. So like profit before tax. If we simplify this,

[00:04:18] Omer: You know, I think what's. What's kind of really cool about this story is that it all started with lemlist back in 2018, 2019, which you started that business with a thousand dollars.

[00:04:30] Right? So super humble, kind of, you know, you know, scrappy start. But before that you, you had a couple of other previous attempts at trying to build businesses, which didn't go too well, and, and one of them was this, this t-shirt business. So maybe you can start by telling us, you know, that story and when you know why you, you started that business and what you were hoping to achieve.

[00:04:57] Guillaume: Yeah, of course. Like the, the first fail business to be honest was was quite hard for me because it was a business I started with with my dad. So, to give a bit more context, like I don't come from money like my parents, they don't have degrees. My grandparents are farmers and immigrants in France.

[00:05:12] So essentially, like both my parents sacrificed a lot, so my brother and I could study, get a good education, et cetera, and eventually, like I became an engineer, but my heart has always been into business. So once I had my master in engineering, my parents were, you know what, like if you wanna study marketing, now that you have an engineering background, it's fine.

[00:05:32] Like you can do it. So I, I went at it, but with in mind, you know, like to be able to make money on the side. So I was like, okay, like I'm gonna launch a business. My dad basically like prints on fabric. So I was like, okay, like let's start a T-shirt business. You know, it doesn't cost a lot of money. We don't have much, but I'm sure we can do something great.

[00:05:52] So I built a community around like Paris you know, like art, et cetera, et cetera. And I just thought that through that community I would be able to, sell thousands of T-shirts. So I put a lot of pressure on my dad on you know, like printing as much t-shirts as possible. But when we launched, we actually only sold like six t-shirts now from, I, I can laugh about it now, but I.

[00:06:16] Six. Yeah, six. So yeah, that was like the, the worst conversion rate I think I had in my entire life. I would definitely do things like totally differently if I had to start all over again because I think I spent like, way too much time trying to develop like the perfect website. The community was totally irrelevant with what we were doing.

[00:06:37] The T-shirts were too expensive. I did not know, like, it was, it was just like lots of learnings. But eventually, you know, I, I kind of got a bit like the, the relationship with my dad kind of like suffered because I think I was like young at the time and also like, ambitious and, you know, I would put my own failures on my dad, like saying like, Hey, we didn't invest enough.

[00:06:58] So that's why, you know, like, we're not. We, we are, we don't have money to do ads, so obviously we can't sell. So I would find like a lot of excuses. And eventually, like I stopped talking to my dad for about like almost a year. So it was it was really tough. We stopped the business and a, a friend of mine at the time was show like seeing me, you know, like grind and hustle to try to like have this business work.

[00:07:19] And then he told me like, Hey, I'm launching like a B2B business. I was like, what the fuck is B2B? And then it was like, business to business. I'm selling leads. And I was like, okay, can you tell me more about it? And it's like, yeah, essentially we're doing like cold email sales prospecting to book meetings with potential prospects for customers, like anywhere in the world.

[00:07:40] So we started doing this, and actually it worked, it worked out like pretty well. Like we started making like a, I would say like. A bit of money. So that was that was quite cool for me 'cause I was like closing companies in the US, in Australia, et cetera. And I started learning about sales prospecting, about how to find anyone's email address, how to reach out to people, how to write, you know, like sales campaigns for different type of industries, different type of personas.

[00:08:07] So it was like really, really interesting. But eventually as the, the, the agency scale, because we were I think around like 10 people with like freelancers, et cetera, I started thinking, you know, like I want something that can truly scale and I love software. So I think I'm just gonna go and, and start my own software in my own company.

[00:08:24] Omer: Okay. So, so the idea for lemlist came from what you were doing at the agency and you, you identified a, a, a potential need. I, I want to get into like how you got started with that and, you know, built the product, but the first question that sort of hit me was. You know, that, that the experience you went through with, with building that t-shirt business, it wasn't just something, you know, a business that failed.

[00:08:49] It caused a lot of problems between you and your father, at least for, for a while. And how did you recover from that mentally and get the confidence to go out and say, okay, I'm gonna try and build another business?

[00:09:05] Guillaume: To be honest, I think like the more people started to doubt about like my capacity of becoming successful because the reality is like in France I did basically the best engineering school and the best like business school.

[00:09:18] So people like, they wouldn't understand you know, like why I was not making money and trying to launch businesses and eating pasta. So my mom is Italian, so for me, eating pasta is like, it's my life. It's still my life. I love it. So I was fine with it. But the, the reality is like I feel the more people doubt about what I can achieve, the more motivated I am.

[00:09:41] And, you know, I would have like my parents asking me like you know, during like family dinners, like, when are you paying yourself? Like, is the project working? Like why don't you find a job? Et cetera, et cetera. So eventually I just like I, I stopped talking, you know, like to a lot of my friends and family for about like a year and a half.

[00:09:58] So I, I was just into like a grind mode. I would work like a lot, but my learning curve was like exponential. I read like so many books, watched like so many videos, tried so many different things. And eventually when it started like working. Like I, I knew I had like proof to everyone doubt it, that I could actually make it.

[00:10:21] And I think that was like the best rewards, you know, the best reward is showing, you know, to people like what you're capable of.

[00:10:27] Omer: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great driver. I think. So how, how did you get started and build a product? Because a thousand dollars to start a business is not a lot, many people would say, you know, I, I, I can't do this.

[00:10:40] I don't have, you know, I can't code or I don't have a technical co-founder, or a whole bunch of reasons why they can't do this. But how did you get started? Like, did you go out and do any kind of validation? Like did you build the product yourself? You know, what happened?

[00:10:55] Guillaume: So the, the first step is is, was to find like people who could actually like ship the product.

[00:11:00] So what I did is I started helping out people for free. So my goal was to get like the biggest network possible, so I would help out people on, on growth strategies, et cetera, especially after the agency where I'd come, like I had built like a lot of skills in acquiring customers and eventually I started helping like two brothers who were like really like good at tech and and I started, you know, like showcasing how they could grow their company and all the things that they could do.

[00:11:27] And eventually they were like, okay, like we love that, but we're not gonna be able to implement any of the stuff that you said. It looks good, but we can't implement it. We're not like these guys. And I say, okay, like we started working a bit like together on site projects and eventually like they were like, okay, like you said that you had an idea of a software.

[00:11:44] Our software is not working that well. Like maybe we can start building it and see how it goes. And that's how it started. And very quickly, you know, like the, the the, they basically like saw that I could bring tens of customers even on the shitty products. So eventually, you know, like it started building up and we got a bit of traction and every month, you know, like from the start, I think it took us, like, we started in January, 2018, and the first paid customer, like out of beta was maybe like in April, so like four months.

[00:12:15] And since then, you know, like we were growing at like 30% months, over months for about like two or three years, like up to almost like 10 million in annual recurring revenue. So obviously like they were like highly motivated to, to continue, like developing the, the product. When, when they saw the results.

[00:12:32] Omer: You, you said earlier that you, you decided to start helping people for free, where were you finding these people?

[00:12:40] Guillaume: So, so it was a bit of a mix. The, I was a lot in like different Facebook communities at the time. It was like a, a big thing. I think it's still a thing like on, on some topics, but I would go like to, to communities on Facebook. I would go to like Reddits. I would go to like is there like Indie hackers where I would saw like people, like asking questions and, and just, I, I would help out and and I would also do it like in Paris in a, in a very famous like stereotype incubator where people would be asking questions, et cetera.

[00:13:09] And I would just like spend time helping out people. But to be entirely honest, I, I still do this, like if someone send me a message or an email with like a very specific question, I will always answer and spend the time to answer. If you look at my WhatsApp, I even have like a rule where people can send me like a very specific. Like they give me like the, the, the problem with as many topics as they can. And then I send them like voice notes in asynchronous. That way I have time like to think about how I would do it, et cetera. And for them to be able to ask me like other questions, they first need to take action on the advice I gave them.

[00:13:46] And then they can come back, you know, with with more stuff. And I still do it to be honest. Like it's something I like. I think it's it's cool to help out. I wish someone could have helped me, you know, like that way when I was younger. So yeah, I do it as much as I can.

[00:13:59] Omer: So I love that. And I love the fact that you, you just started going out and connecting with people and just finding ways that you could help.

[00:14:09] And you said build your network, but you also mentioned that, you know, you had your parents, you know, constantly asking you, you know, why didn't you get a job? When are you gonna pay yourself? How are you gonna make money? And so did you feel a lot of pressure there? Like in, in terms of Yeah, I'm going out and helping people, but I'm not getting paid for that either?

[00:14:31] Guillaume: Hmm. Yeah, to be honest, it's like the reality is, like for me, I felt like when I was helping people in, even in the early days, I could feel how helpful and useful I was, and I felt like I was doing the right thing. You know? I think like a lot of people, you know, whenever they say like hey, like, you're giving money to a charity, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:14:51] I think like when you give money for, for a charity, of course, like you do it to help people, et cetera, but you, in my opinion, you're doing it for yourself. You know, it's like, it makes you feel good to do good. And at that time, because like a lot of people were doubting me and I would feel bad about like them asking all these questions because obviously I had like my friend and my family, but I also had like, one girlfriend at the time who was paying the rent. We were living in like a 28 meter square the two of us. So, you know, like the, the pressure was like real, like it was a real struggle, really hard. And and sometimes I just wanted, you know, like to be helpful and and to know that it, it was basically like a confident boost because if you help people and you see like the, the true value of what you bring, you build in a lot more confidence in the skills that you have developed and you know that your project will eventually work and that you just have to put your head down and do the reps and eventually, like, it'll all work out.

[00:15:51] Omer: So you, you, you team up with the two brothers who basically become your co-founders. You build the first version of lemlist. How long did it take to get those first 10 customers? I know you said you got the first one. In April, about three, four months. After you launched?

[00:16:11] Guillaume: Yeah. Before that, I would say we had like maybe like more than a hundred people on better.

[00:16:15] So we, we had like different steps. First, you know, like I would really like reach out to other person I had helped and then, you know, I would onboard them on the product. So I would like be on calls and I would have them create an account on calls just so they sign up and they actually like see the product.

[00:16:33] And so I would really have them create the pro like an account. And what I would do is, back in the days, I would charge maybe like a thousand dollars to $2,000, like per client with the agency to like set them up their campaigns and do the entire like copywriting. But with lemlist, I would do it kind of like for free.

[00:16:50] So that was kind of my trick to have as many people like get on the product and start seeing results because the product was buggy. It was like really shit. Like the, the first version didn't have like follow ups, you know? And at the time, even though it was maybe not the same industry as it is right now, like the expectation from people were high because we had already like, tons of competitors.

[00:17:10] So I would just like try to give more like the, the human touch. And you know, like a lot of people believe that software is all about like tech, et cetera. But it's not like if you have an exceptional customer service. And in that case, that was me delivering like top-notch service. Of course, like people gonna remember it, and of course people will pay, will pay whenever you ask them to.

[00:17:32] So for me, that was kind of the trick. And I would, basically like use also our own product to do my outbound because this was the only thing, like we were not paying, so if you look at the $1,000, like a bit of money would go to the server, but that was pretty cheap because we could get, you know, like AWS credits for startups and I think they give you like 12K for the first two years.

[00:17:55] So for us it was basically like free for, for us. And then after that we would just buy like data, but it was also pretty cheap because I would go to data provider and say, Hey by the way, you can get like a free lemlist account and we, we do a trade off. I would trade a lot lemlist against like the software I would use and people would be fine with it because what, what what founders don't like is like when you ask something without giving anything in return, but if you go and you say, Hey, you know what?

[00:18:21] Like I have that product that does X, Y, Z. Can we trade licenses? Like, I don't have much money, but I'm just starting, but I love what you do. Like, is that fine? Usually they give it to you for free and, and you can just use it and, and that was enough for me.

[00:18:35] Omer: Okay. So one of the things you said was like, Hey, the product didn't do much, you didn't have follow ups.

[00:18:40] It kind of was shit. Yeah. A lot of founders are really scared of that, right? They, they don't want to get a product out there and for, they sort of feel like, Hey, if customers experience this and it's a bad experience, that's it. I, they'll, they'll never work with me again. And so I've gotta make sure that it's really good and I've gotta make sure that it has all these features.

[00:19:10] So maybe I'm gonna spend two years building this, this product. And it's, it's understandable, right? I mean, I think you, you wanna make sure that you get a good product out there. You, you sort of, it sounds like you sort of balance that by saying, okay, I'm going to provide such great customer service and build relationships with these people that they'll, they'll put up with some of the, the, the, you know, the issues with the product because, you know, they know me, they like me, they trust me, that kind of thing.

[00:19:40] But if, if the product doesn't have the features or is, doesn't, isn't working well enough for them. There's still a risk that people are gonna churn, right? Even no matter how much they like, you know, Guim they're gonna say it just doesn't work. So how, how did you get over that? How did you deal with that?

[00:19:57] Guillaume: So, so I think like I would take the problem in and split it like into two different options.

[00:20:02] Option one, you are in a crowded market, meaning like people's expectation are extremely high. So that was the case with lemlist. And for that, even though you don't have all the features that your competitors have, you need to have like one unique differentiator. And what you said about like the product not being ready, et cetera, like the only thing you need is not like all the features.

[00:20:22] It's that differentiator. And this is how you validate like the traction in the market. In our case. When I was running like the agency, I would see that whenever we would personalize like the outbound with either like a video with the name of the person or like you know, like adding the logo of their company, et cetera, like it would really increase the reply rates.

[00:20:43] So within lemlist, we built like this video feature and this basically like automatic logo, pullout feature. That was quite easy, but it gave like the wow effect and that was enough for people, you know, like to be interested in the product and at least testing it. And the second thing is like, if you are not in a competitive market, in that case, all you need is solving one specific problem.

[00:21:08] So we launched tele another company, you know, that was like one of our other product lemwarm. The course was really, really rapid because no one thought of warmup. No one thought of having a tool that will help you improve your deliverability. No one was talking about it, but I knew it was a pain because in our community, people were talking about it.

[00:21:31] So I just decided to build a very simple version that initially was actually like something done with like Google spreadsheet, et cetera, like something very less scrappy. And very quickly I started seeing people pay, but the value was there and it was enough. So what you need to validate is if you're in a crowded market, is your differentiator good enough for people to pay?

[00:21:55] If that's not the case, it means you need to find another differentiator. And two, if you're not in a crowded market, is like, is the problem you're solving big enough for people to pay? Because the reality is like people talk about like product market fit, but if you're in a crowded market, the product market fit already exists.

[00:22:11] It's just like maybe people don't like your product, don't like what you build, but if others are successful, there's no reason for you not to be. And the only reason why you're not successful is because your execution skills are not good enough versus your competitors, in my opinion.

[00:22:26] How, how did you figure out the differentiator for Le List?

[00:22:30] Was this about. Did you go out and like, talk to, to customers and figure out what, what was sort of missing from the, the other products? Was it just about your experience of looking at the market?

[00:22:42] I just, I just started like with first principle, which is what's the main problem people face whenever like they, they do like outbound and you mentioned it to me actually like just before we started the show.

[00:22:53] So it was quite fun. It's like when you start sending cold emails, the number one thing that people struggle with is getting replies. So I started from, okay, like the struggle is about getting replies and getting meeting books. So now I'm gonna look at all the things that could help people get more meeting booked.

[00:23:11] And that's the kind of product I wanna build and I wanna build my differentiator around that main pain point. Because every time you tell people that they can get more replies, obviously there is like a light bulb and they're like, oh yes, that's, that got my interest. You know, like, how exactly am I gonna get more replies?

[00:23:28] I love that what you just said is so simple, but it's so I guess profound. Like, 'cause the goal for customers is not to send out emails. The goal for them is to get a reply, right? It's like, yeah, exactly. So, so in those first few years, like, you know, once you got those initial customers, the, it started to grow very quickly and I think you hit the first million in a RR like under two years.

[00:23:55] Yeah, two years I think it took us, yeah.

[00:23:57] Omer: What was, what was driving that growth? Was it just this combination of like, you spending a bunch of time you know, being the, the support, the customer success guy and all of this stuff and just using Lend List to just do outbound or were you doing anything else?

[00:24:11] Guillaume: Yeah, so it's, it's a bit of a mix. So, you know, like I, I started using lemlist for, I would say the first 100 paying customers. I would do outbound and I would test very, very different like type of approach. I would say it's test like the very, like straight to the point approach, up to the one with like very long emails image, no image videos, no videos.

[00:24:34] And I would receive like positive replies. And I would also replies receive replies like, fuck off French motherfucker. Like, that's a really male. I started like receiving. So to be honest, like I went through all the ups and downs like sales rep can go through. And what I would do is for all the campaigns that would give me like good reply rates, I would document everything.

[00:24:56] So I would start writing. I would, I was actually the first one I. To actually showcasing the email templates I would use and the replies I would get. Because if you type like cold made templates online, you're gonna end up on like HubSpot article that has been written by their SEO team who has like never done outbound in their entire life.

[00:25:16] And if you start using this templates, obviously it's not gonna work out. So I, I would really like start from a pain, which is everyone is looking for templates, but the one that are online. Are not good. And because we all know that SEO is something that can be manipulated eventually, the results that people see are just not good.

[00:25:35] And people, it's basically super deceptive. So I just saw a gap and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna document my life. I'm gonna show the exact results, the exact replies, and eventually I started doing this like quickly. So I would do like the, the weekly template, weekly called email template. And it started getting quite a lot of engagement.

[00:25:53] And as we started having more and more customers, I would start asking people like if they were willing to do the same and that they would be exposed to our audience of tens of thousands of people. Obviously at first, I. I changed the bit, the number because you know, you have to increase it so it's worthwhile for people.

[00:26:12] But eventually, like people wanted to be part of what I call the lemlister of the week. So it would build a lot of trust because it's a social proof of people using your product. Then it shows that they are successful. So more people want to be successful exactly like them, and at the same time it actually shows, you know, like the insights of someone who's really sending out some cold emails.

[00:26:33] So all of this was kind of like a, a virtuous circle because based on people's campaign, they will also come back with feedback based on the feedback they gave me. I would also improve the product and change, kind of like the roadmap, et cetera, based on the community feedback. Then with the new features, I would eventually like launch new campaigns and showcase how to use it so more people would come from these features, more people would get better results, and so on and so forth.

[00:26:59] And and it got kind of like a, an exponential growth from there.

[00:27:02] Omer: Where were you publishing this stuff? Was this all on LinkedIn or somewhere else at the time?

[00:27:07] Guillaume: Yeah, I published a lot on LinkedIn. I was publishing on our blog, also on the landless blog. Back in the days I would also publish, you know, like 'cause we had a lot of founders also in in our like customers in the early days.

[00:27:18] So at the same time I would do what I call the, the Marco Polo Strategy. So Marco Polo, you know, is like famous for discovering like the, the Silk Road. But the reality is like it did not discover it actually, like thousands of people discovered it before him. But the reality is it was just like a merchant, but it was the first one to actually document it.

[00:27:40] And because it was the first one to document it, everyone still remembers him to this day. So my, my idea was like, okay, I'm gonna document, you know, like how did I get my first 10 customers, my first a hundred customers, how did we reach $250,000 in annual recurring revenue? How did we reach a million? Et cetera, et cetera.

[00:27:58] And. I would document the highs and the lows, the mistakes I've made, be super transparent about it. And eventually, you know, like it builds a lot of trust. And I, I think, you know, like people overcomplicate any business, but for me it's the foundation of any business is the trust in B2B. When you're selling like a product or a service, you're selling a solution to a specific problem.

[00:28:26] And for people you know, like to accept working with you, they just need to trust you. Because if, if you go back to like any work from an agency, a SaaS or whatever, you, if you're in B2B, you do two things. Either you help people save time or you help them make more money. But essentially it's all about like a return on investment.

[00:28:46] Everyone wants to save time and everyone wants to make more money. The only reason people decide to work with you versus another person is whether or not they believe that you'll be the right person to drive to the promise that you made. And for that. The trust, in my opinion. It's like you take it, it's like a, a triangle where you have like emotional connection.

[00:29:07] So some people, for example, right now they're listening to the podcast and they might say, oh, la la like gee, with his French accent, like, I can't understand him, I don't like him. Or they might say, well, he looks like someone pretty cool, like from France and is done quite some cool stuff. So that's like emotional connections.

[00:29:23] That's this thing that you don't actually decide. Sometimes, you know, it's just like your name reminds them of someone they hated, et cetera. Or sometimes it's the same name, either cousin that they love and it's already like a direct connection. Then you have like a credibility, which is like a what have you achieved in your life that make you in a credible position to do what you're offering?

[00:29:42] And finally, reliability. Can you deliver on the promises you've made? And whenever you're building in public. This is when you're basically like adding all these these three parts of the trust triangle and building like a lot more trust that will help you increase, you know, all your conversion rate on all aspects whenever you're doing outbound or any sales.

[00:30:04] Omer: I, I think you've done a great job with this whole idea of, of, you know, building in public on LinkedIn. You're still very active all the time. I just looked it up. You've got like 50 thou, 55,000 followers on there and that has played a big part in, you know, continuing to, to, to grow this business and, and get exposure to new people, new customers.

[00:30:31] One of the things that founders are often reluctant to do with the building in public is I'm gonna tell my competitors everything as well, and it's gonna benefit them in some way. Has that been an issue for you? Has that resulted in a whole bunch of copycat type products? Has that been a problem? Or just you're like, whatever. It's like, let 'em do it.

[00:30:52] Guillaume: To be honest, like yeah, we have like a, a lot of copycats. I think most of the, the players are like the new players are copycats, but in the end, you know, like it's I take this as a compliment, you know, it's like, it means that everything we've done is is actually great.

[00:31:08] And the reality is like, you will never stop people from copying you. You know, like so whether or not we share our numbers, it's gonna bring like new people. And the reality is like, if people keep copying what you do, they are, you know, educating the market for your product because you will always be the best version, you know?

[00:31:27] So it's, for me, it's like, it's, it's never a, a true problem. And and in reality, like, I think people are a lot more scared about. Being copied than they should. Because the reality is like, even if I give you right now the best business idea ever and we have like hundreds of thousand people listening to that podcast, I'm not even sure one person will actually like spend the time to work on that idea.

[00:31:53] So sharing things in public, you know, like people have their day-to-Day life, they might say, oh yeah, we must do this. But eventually, when it's time to take action, usually people like don't take action.

[00:32:03] Omer: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. Super great point. Okay, so I, I wanna get to the point where I think it's about three and a half years later that you guys cashed out with the business.

[00:32:15] Just in terms of timelines, were you still just working on lemlist? Had you created any other products in those three and a half years and, and did Taplio and Tweet Hunter happen after that? Or, or before?

[00:32:27] Guillaume: Yeah, so essentially like we, I think it was around like three and a half to four years. After, you know, we, we started the, the company.

[00:32:35] So three and a half years after the first paying customers, and like four years since like first line of code, I would say we reached $10 million in annual recurring revenue with lemlist and lemwarm. And we cashed out $30 million at a $150 million valuation. Before that, we also had like a, a site project called lempire that we grew to $600,000 and that we sold.

[00:32:57] So at that time, you know, I was I wanted to call myself, I guess like a, an exit SaaS founder, and it was quite hard to work on multiple project because I didn't know how to scale the team. So we decided to sell that project so another company could grow it, but eventually, like, I was like, okay.

[00:33:13] It was, it was not a good idea. I think I prefer like running you know, like multiple SaaS myself because I know that the benefit can be huge in the long term. So yeah, that was kind of like the, the, the time, the vibe, where we at, at at that time. Yeah. Hmm.

[00:33:28] Omer: Okay. J just for people who don't understand, just explain what cashed out means and what investors actually get for that.

[00:33:35] Guillaume: Yeah, so cash out is also called sometimes secondary. So basically like an investor, whenever you see articles like about fundraising, they usually like put money directly on the balance sheet of the company. So the, the, the money goes to the company's bank account which basically for us is pretty useless because we were already profitable and we don't need it, like more money on the, on the company's bank account.

[00:34:00] However you know, at some point the, the more you grow your business the more you know, like pressure you have because. You kind of see the value of your business growing, but you as a founder don't get the same amount. So let's say we were at 10 million in annual recurring revenue growing like more than a hundred percent every year.

[00:34:20] So I was like, okay, technically that means the company should be valued anywhere between I don't know, like 80 to 160 million dollars since we're profitable. So I was like, okay, like that's a lot of money, but we don't have this money, you know, as fund. So the cash out is basically when founder when a gross equity firm or it's often like private equity firm, they're gonna basically like buy shares from you directly and give you money to your own personal bank account instead.

[00:34:48] So at that time, basically like my, my two co-founders left and and I stayed in the business and we kind of like rearranged everything. But we each took $10 million home, which basically put me in a position at that time where. I was not in the need to work another day, you know, like in my life.

[00:35:05] And I decided to continue because I'm passionate about what I do and I wanna continue helping as many people as possible.

[00:35:12] Omer: Yeah. Okay. So now you are, you're, I mean, you are, you're in a position where you're like, Hey, we don't have to worry about money. We actually got some of that. So without that, on the back of your mind, I can now focus on this business and growing it even more and without, you know, these sort of pressures kind of, you know, keeping me awake at night.

[00:35:31] And your two co-founders were like, I. Great, but we don't wanna work on this business anymore. We're gonna, you know, whatever decision they wanna make that's right for them.

[00:35:39] Guillaume: Yeah. No, it, it didn't really happen like this. It's, yeah, it's, it's more that eventually, like they, they, they had some like personal issues and for, initially they were supposed to stay in the company, but because they had like personal issues that we kind of like discovered after the cash outs.

[00:35:57] Like they decided, like they were two brothers and they, they decided like to leave, but it was quite hard because it was very unplanned. So from one day to another, I had to essentially like manage all the tech all these kind of things, like making sure that all the projects were going well. And you know, like sometimes you, you discover also like a lot of stuff afterwards that were quite like tough and challenging.

[00:36:18] So yeah, I, I, I would say that I spent, the 18 months after the cash out were extremely hard on the personal level. But eventually, like yeah, it, it all, it all worked out. Yeah.

[00:36:29] Omer: Okay. So then let's talk about which was the first acquisition? Was it Taplio or Tweet Hunter?

[00:36:36] Guillaume: Yeah, we bought them at the same time actually.

[00:36:38] Omer: When did that happen and why did you make those investments? And I know from reading one of your LinkedIn posts. Like, even pe you know, the critics were like, it doesn't make any sense why, you know, why these companies. Right. So just explain like, you know, why you did that and what, what the thought process was.

[00:36:59] Guillaume: Yeah, so the first thing is like, I've been a user of Taplio and Tweet Hunter, enter, like initially just like Tweet Hunter because when we acquired Taplio, it was like very small, but it was basically a copycat of tweet and turf for LinkedIn. So I was a user of both. And something I, I, I always experiment, like new stuff.

[00:37:16] And something I tried was to essentially like because I post a lot of contents, I would want to engage with people who have like, interacted with my content, like people who liked or commented my post. So what I did is I took these people and I decided to put them. In in a like Google spreadsheets and filter them based on the ICPI wanted to have discussion with, so let's say VP of sales or like founders of company with more than a hundred people.

[00:37:45] And then I decided to create like nameless campaign and see the results I would get from reaching out to these people who basically like, kind of know me or at least know the content I produce versus a very cool audience. And the results were just like insane. And because I had also trained my team to create content.

[00:38:04] So if you look at all people in my team, most of them are actually like creating content, building audiences. We decided to do the same with a few other profiles and we got the ex exact same results. And this is when I came up with like this warm outbound type of like process, which is if you reach out to people who are interacted with some content that you master, and you also have an audience that can build trust.

[00:38:29] Basically like the results you get to your outbound are just insane compared to someone who's just doing like cold call or cold outbound every single day. So from that moment I was like, okay, this is it. I, I haven't disclosed anything yet, you know? 'cause I didn't want the word to be out, but I was like, I need to acquire these companies.

[00:38:48] So I had a chat with the founder. We had like a lunch. They were trying to sell the company. They gave me the offer that they had, but it was really like, crap. So I was like, okay, like, give me 24 hours. And I came back with like a, an offer. And, and then the, the deal was made.

[00:39:04] Omer: And then you know, what did you do there?

[00:39:06] Did you, did you let them kind of operate as independent businesses? Or did you get more involved in running and whatever? Because I think you said. Taplio was fairly small at the time, but it grew pretty quickly after the acquisition.

[00:39:20] Guillaume: Yeah. But the, the reality is like as a team, we were not super big on on Twitter.

[00:39:25] I, I was just like trying out Twitter and I think I grew my profile pretty quickly, but then it was a bit too much work 'cause I was handling like way too many things and I, I, I just focused a bit more on LinkedIn. But the team was really good on LinkedIn. So essentially when we acquired it, it was a lot easier for us to leverage our network.

[00:39:43] And also like all the influencers we knew to kind of like push the growth. So I think I acquired Taplio. It was at like 20, 20K in monthly recurring revenue and and it crossed like 4 or 5 million like recently. So it's it's quite insane in in the annual recurring revenue.

[00:39:59] Omer: So you, you've got the, you know, you've got a team of about 90 people now.

[00:40:03] You've got these five different businesses, your co-founders moved on. So you are basically the only founder of this business. I see you on LinkedIn and all the stuff that you're posting and these videos you're creating and your YouTube channel. H how do you, how do you find the time to do everything?

[00:40:26] Guillaume: Yeah, I, I, I get this question asked a lot to be honest, like I guess it's just a matter of you know, I started doing it like since day one. So for me, everything is is easier now. At first, like if you go back to my first YouTube video, you know, I was I. Just I bought like a, a $15 iPhone, kind of like you know, like I don't know how we call this tripod and, and just a microphone on Amazon.

[00:40:49] And, and I would do the videos. I would edit them myself so I could see like what I wanted to kind of like change and, and eventually, you know, I did so many of those that it got better and better and better. And at first it was really crap. I can tell you. And, and for writing, it's, it's more or less the same, you know, like at first you struggle to write.

[00:41:07] Eventually you are, you feel confident about the tone. I like writing the way I talk, so for me it's like super easy. And eventually, you know, like I have a place in Taplio where I just like put all my ideas and from my ideas I would start like writing posts and then I schedule them and, and then it's fine.

[00:41:24] You know, like it's, it's just a matter of like building that muscle. So for others it looks hard because they've never done it. But if you look at the pieces of content I've created. It's, it's in the thousands, so, so obviously for me now, everything is is a lot easier than when I got started. And and I ju I just think it's about like building that habits that that will help you get better and faster at it.

[00:41:48] Omer: So if there's a you know, founders are listening to this and saying, I, I love the idea of building in public. Maybe I, I should get more active on LinkedIn or Twitter, but, you know, they, they have this reluctance because they think their content is shit, or, you know, they're not very good at creating videos or writing or anything like that.

[00:42:12] What practical advice could you give them in terms of, you know, how they could just get started? Like some simple things that they could do?

[00:42:21] Guillaume: I, I would say there are two advice that I can give and that will help people maybe like, start thinking about this in a, in a different manner. The first one is if you take like artists who, in my opinion, you know, like if you take painters for example, they are the one with sometimes, you know, like a huge ego and they want to be like the most unique person doing their art, et cetera.

[00:42:43] Like, or at least that's the way we picture them. But they all have learned to paint the exact same way. They took like a, a Canva and they were looking at a painting that was done before them and they tried to reproduce it. So in content it's exactly the same like list the people who you like the content, who you like the tone, and if you agree with one post that they have been writing, rewrite it in your own words.

[00:43:09] So you take the entire post, you copy paste it, and then you rewrite it, rewrite every single line, and try to make it your own. If they have posted something you disagree with. Take that exact same post, rewrite it, but saying the opposite. And just do that to create your content at first. That way you will start, you know, like learning the muscle of rewriting something.

[00:43:32] And you don't start from like a, a blank canvas. The the second thing I wanna say is focus on the output, not the outcome. So the outcome would be getting millions of views and the output would be writing one LinkedIn post. You don't control the reach that you will have, but you can control how many posts you write.

[00:43:57] And what I always tell my team, because I've coached essentially like in my team, maybe like 30 people to write content, and you can see like some of the profile in my team have even like a, a bigger audience than I have now. And the reality is like the, what I always tell them is like, it's the rule of a hundred for a hundred days, you need to post.

[00:44:18] Each day, and you don't have to write every single day, but write in batches. But you have to do it every day. You have to make that post, because at first it's not gonna be great, but eventually it'll get better. And after a hundred days, I can tell you that you will have built that muscle that makes you kind of like, like writing content because you would see the improvement.

[00:44:39] And it's the same thing with everything in life. Like if you wanna start playing guitar at first, your fingers are gonna be in pain, like it's gonna be like so painful, et cetera. But as you start getting it, you know, like you will see like, oh, I can actually like make chords. It looks a bit nicer now, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:44:57] And after a hundred days you will see that you're much better and you have a lot more confidence. So for me it's like build that muscle, build that confidence. Focus on the output, not the outcome.

[00:45:07] Omer: I love that. I love that. And I think that, you know, I've seen some of the people on your team who ha have been active on LinkedIn as well.

[00:45:14] 'cause I think when you engage with their posts, I see a lot of those. And it's one thing to look at your, your following and say, oh, you know, gee kind of has been doing this for a long time and he maybe, you know, he, he, you know, either got lucky or he's just good at this or whatever. But then to repeat it, you know, over and over with people in your team, it shows that, you know, there's some principles here that if you can learn and you can apply and you can build that discipline.

[00:45:43] Then you can also repeat, you know, that success to, to some level I, in addition to creating content, you know, we often hear about, especially on LinkedIn, like, hey, you've gotta spend time like engaging with other people's content and commenting and, and all of that stuff. Is that something you think is also just as important as creating the content?

[00:46:03] And would you recommend that founders also spend time doing that?

[00:46:07] Guillaume: I think it depends where you're at in your journey. If you're like in the, you know, like early days of your journey, I think it's for a lot of people, it's actually a great way to build confidence because you comment on something that someone has created.

[00:46:19] So it's a lot easier, you know, to comment on something rather than create something from scratch. So I would say like, yes, because most people, when they comment, they, they don't spend a lot of time commenting. It's not like very thoughtful. So if you spend a bit of time, you will stand out and your comment will be seen by a lot of people.

[00:46:36] So eventually what I would advise is, yes, you can comment. So spend time when you comment, like, don't just put a heart or like exceptional post or this kind of things. But what you can do is write something pretty long if you have something to say or engage with other people comments, because if you engage with people who have commented, you engage basically with people who are active on commenting on LinkedIn, which means that when you post, these people will know who you are and also engage with your content.

[00:47:02] So that's kind of like an easy way to build the, the early traction and eventually afterwards you don't really like, need to do it anymore, but you can. It's, it's kind of like up to you personally. Like, I don't have the time to do it, so I, I don't do it unless, you know, I see something. Let's say like I'm in the bathroom and chilling on LinkedIn and I want to comment because I'm seeing something.

[00:47:24] But otherwise no.

[00:47:25] Omer: Yeah, I mean, it's something that I've been trying to do as well. Like, I, I never really spent much time on LinkedIn, and I guess about five, five months ago I just said, okay, I'm gonna start posting, you know, 4, 5, 4, 5 times a day. You know, my following is about like, I 10% of yours, probably even less than that, I think.

[00:47:42] Right. But anyway, the, the thing that I really enjoyed was the part about creating content, hearing people talk about problems and, and trying to find something that, that might help them. The thing I've always hated is this thing where people say you know, I spend every day leaving a hundred comments on other people's posts.

[00:48:03] And, and to me it was like, it, it doesn't feel genuine, it doesn't feel authentic. You know, if I leave a comment on somebody's post i'd, I'd like to do it because I, I like the post, or I, or I wanted to share something. And, and it's just, I think there's just this, there's this web kind of system I think some people are trying to use to sort of gain this gain.

[00:48:23] How, how LinkedIn works that, it, it sort of put me off a bit, right? It was like, oh, if, if I have to do that to, to be able to do that, I'm not really sure I wanna spend that much time on LinkedIn, but it's good to hear you say that.

[00:48:34] Guillaume: I know a lot of people who've been like, super successful with without commenting.

[00:48:38] So it's like to be honest, it's, it's really like up to where you at in your journey. But in your case, because of all the great content like you can create, I would just like focus on creating content rather than on commenting. I think your time would be like a, a much wiser investment on that end, to be honest.

[00:48:55] Omer: Well, now that, now I've got your approval. That's, that's the strategy I'm gonna take

[00:49:02] Guillaume: Unsolicited advice. Sorry about that.

[00:49:05] Omer: No, no, no, no. I think it's great. Appreciate it. Yeah. Look, I would love to keep talking. I, I, I could happily talk with you for hours and hours but you know, it's we should wrap up.

[00:49:14] So let's do the lightning round. You've, you've done this before. I'll go back and compare the questions to see how they've changed since the five years ago. Okay. So what's one of the best pieces of business advice you've received?

[00:49:27] Guillaume: I think, to be honest, was to build in public. Like, I haven't invented that, but for me it's like no matter what happens, you know, like to your company and sometimes company fail for things that are totally outside of their control, but who you are, what you stand for, your brand and the community you've created is something that you will always keep with you.

[00:49:45] So if you do it early. You know, like you, you are building basically like a, an eternal asset. Like tomorrow, for example, if all my companies are dead, I could do like consulting for like, I don't know, a thousand dollars an hour. You know, that would be like pretty easy. So it's like build it because it's it's something that should keep your entire life.

[00:50:03] Omer: What book would you recommend to our audience and why?

[00:50:06] Guillaume: I, I think I, I'm gonna do like a, a non-business book. I love the the Alchemist from Paulo Coelho because it's like, it's, I think this is a meaning of life. You know, like life is all about the journey. We, we all focus, especially with like press and things like that, that are showing, you know, like overnight success and the get rich quick type of things and all these short form content that makes you believe that life is easy and that you're gonna get something that will make you happy eventually.

[00:50:33] The reality is like all the things that you believe that will make you happy in the future, like the fancy car the, the, the model, the, the nice house, et cetera, they want it's all about enjoying the process. So make sure you're actually on the right track and on the right process, because life is about the journey and, and this book is a, is a beautiful reminder of it.

[00:50:55] Omer: I, I love The Alchemist. I think it's an amazing book. But actually I'm gonna make an unsolicited recommendation as well. The, the book that I, that I love even more now after reading it, I don't know if you've read it, is like, Manuscript Found in Acra, which is also by Paulo Coelho.

[00:51:12] Guillaume: Oh, nice. I'm gonna type it.

[00:51:14] Yeah, I will type. It's,

[00:51:16] Omer: it's, it's, it's a very similar, but a very, kind of a different take on, on the same sort of ideas, but yeah. What's, what's one attribute or characteristic in your mind of a successful founder?

[00:51:27] Guillaume: I would say like, discipline, because, like, discipline for me, it's like the, the purest form, you know, of of self-love.

[00:51:34] Because it's basically like you, you sacrifice your current state for your future state discipline is all about, you know, like doing the things that you don't feel like doing because you know that in the long run it'll pay off. And if we want to be scientific about it, we can all look at the studies about like delayed gratification or what people call like the marshmallow theory where, you know, like they, they've tried, you know, kids where essentially like they would give to kids two options.

[00:52:04] Option A, it's like you can eat the marshmallow now, or if you wait for 15 minutes, you will get another marshmallow. And all the kids that will actually wait for another 15 minutes, so will have like master delayed gratification. They are tremendously more successful in life than all the others. And for me, this is like the quality of a founder because you're gonna be struggling.

[00:52:27] You're gonna go through like the toughest time. But if in your minds you start like enjoying these tough times because you know it's part of the process to be successful and you know that you must go through all these hard things to get to where you want. Then you'll be successful. Like, there is no way you won't be successful.

[00:52:45] Omer: I, I, I love that. I, I, I love this idea of like, you know, purest form of, of self-love. That's awesome. What's your favorite personal productivity tool or habit?

[00:52:56] Guillaume: I would say it's a habit, and by far, like the most efficient one. It's like to sleep eight hours. Like I don't put alarm anymore. And to be honest, like I know that when I am well rested, I'm a hundred times more efficient and more productive, and it's better than any tool, any app or whatever that I've used in the past.

[00:53:16] Omer: I, I read a LinkedIn post from somebody in your team. I can't remember who it was. And she said that it, it was a story about how she. Overslept and was late for work. And, and, and her CEO said, well, that means you, you, you are, you know, you didn't, you're not getting enough sleep. Right. And, and was, was that about you, was that a real story?

[00:53:35] Guillaume: Yeah, yeah. It was me. Yeah. Yeah. It was a true story. She came home and I, she came like to the office and it was kind of like, yeah, sh she was not sleeping enough and I just told her like no stress. Like if you want to come like, I don't know, to the office at like 11 or whatever, like just sleep, you know?

[00:53:49] Like it's …

[00:53:49] Omer: what's a new, new, what's a new or crazy business idea you'd love to pursue if you had the time?

[00:53:54] Guillaume: I think if I had the time, and it's on a totally like different topics. It's it's basically like a sports app. I, I do believe like sports is the foundation, you know, of health, like exercise, like super, super important.

[00:54:06] And I don't think there is an app right now that's like, good enough to be like your, your life coach on how to have fun in creating like a super cool exercise to train, work out and achieve your goals and set goals also like for you that are quite ambitious. I think like if people, you know, like, would set up some physical goals, like I don't know, it can be some stuff simple, you know, like running five kilometers or these kind of things. The fact that you can easily see the progression and the transformation that is both like physical and mental when you do sports, I think it gives you a super strong foundation for everything else in life.

[00:54:43] And I think like people underestimate the power of sports in our day-to-Day life and. I think it's, it would be a great way to impact, like people's life and do also like a, a fun project.

[00:54:54] Omer: Yeah. That's awesome. What's an interesting or fun fact about you that most people don't know?

[00:54:59] Guillaume: I think very few people know that I traveled the world for a year with almost like zero money.

[00:55:05] And the only way I did it was using like social network to stay at people's for free. I would use like a couch surfing, woofing, Tinder, any communities about traveler. And I would just like hack my way through to people's home and and just like document like a bit of it. I I don't know if we kept the page 'cause I did that with my best friend and at some point we were like, okay, maybe we, we will not keep all the info.

[00:55:30] But yeah, it was really fun.

[00:55:31] Omer: Love that. And, and finally, what's one of your most important passions outside of your work?

[00:55:36] Guillaume: I'm currently training actually for an Iron Man. So that's triathlon is taking a, a lot of my time and I love, like music or spending time with friends also. Like, that's, that's the thing I love.

[00:55:46] Omer: G, thank you so much for joining me and coming back for this five year anniversary. I appreciate you making the time. Congratulations on, on everything that's happened. I, I think when we talked in 2019, you, it was still pretty early in the journey, right? It was like you, you'd, you'd got to seven figures.

[00:56:03] But, you know, I had no idea what was good about to come. Right? Just, just around the corner.

[00:56:09] Guillaume: Me neither.

[00:56:11] Omer: Yeah, so, so maybe instead of waiting five years, maybe we, we do a V3 in a couple of years because of the way you guys are going. Maybe there'll be a even more interesting story to tell. If people wanna learn about all the products we'll include the links to all, all five products in the show notes.

[00:56:29] For now, I would just say maybe they just go to lempire.com.

[00:56:33] Guillaume: Yeah, lempire.com is good. And if people, you know, like have questions you take my first name, guillaume@lempire.com and you can send me like specific questions. And I'd be happy to to answer and help you out in the, in the best way I can.

[00:56:50] Omer: He means that. Right. It's like you actually do that, which is awesome. G, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Great to catch up. I congratulations again on everything and I wish you and the team the, the best of success in the coming years.

[00:57:04] Guillaume: Thanks a lot, Omer it was really fun.

[00:57:06] Omer: My pleasure. Cheers.