Omer (00:11.840)
Welcome to another episode of the SaaS Podcast.
I'm your host, Omer Khan and this is the show where I interview proven founders and industry experts who share their stories, strategies and insights to help you build, launch, and grow your SaaS business.
Now, before I introduce today's guest, I want to ask you a question.
Is there someone that you'd like me to interview on this podcast?
Is there a person, product story that you want to hear more about?
Well, I'd love to hear from you.
Just send me a tweetmer Khan O M E R K H A N and I will do my best to get that person on the show.
All right, today's Interview is part two of the interview with Josh Pickford of Bare Metrics.
In episode 48, we explored how Josh took his business from nothing to $30,000 a month in recurring revenue.
In this episode, we're going to get tactical and learn how Josh uses content marketing to grow his business.
We'll talk about why he hates the term content marketing and we'll get an over the shoulder view of what he does on a day to day basis to produce high quality content that attracts new customers and revenue.
So with that, let's get back to the interview.
Okay, let's talk about content marketing.
Now, from what I've seen, you, you spend, you know, a fair amount of your time, you know, doing content marketing.
So I wanted to just spend some time learning from you in terms of how you've gone about doing that, some of the lessons you've learned along the way, and then what our listeners can kind of take away from that and apply that in their own businesses.
So to start off, can you just tell me a little bit about the kind of things that you've been doing over the last year or so to, to really get, get the word out about BARE Metrics?
Josh Pigford (02:15.350)
Sure.
So I think content marketing kind of has, it does for me have a negative connotation because when I think content marketing, I picture like Buzzfeed style, 10 things that you won't believe that will grow your business.
I mean, just junk and stuff that, that anyone on the planet can pump out.
So I kind of cringe a little bit when I think content marketing, but I think our approach has been to not do that kind of stuff and instead just talk about the stuff that kind of we only, we are sort of uniquely capable of talking about.
And so I mean, in that instance, it's my experience as a founder and not necessarily that all the stuff that I write has huge insight as much as it's just sort of an outpouring of the stuff that I've been working on or trying or failing at.
And I think that that kind of hits a nerve with the kind of people that would be barometrics customers, which are other entrepreneurs.
So I think that's worked really well for us is just writing stuff that nobody else could really write about, at least not from our perspective.
And I think that kind of strikes a chord with other people.
Omer (03:43.210)
Can you give me an example of something that you've produced recently?
Josh Pigford (03:48.410)
So most recently, or at least in the past few weeks, we wrote about how we spent the half of that $500,000 in investment money within a few months.
And so the mistakes we made around that and how we spin it and that kind of stuff.
I mean, that's a pretty classic example.
I wrote about how we did a retreat for our whole team.
We're all remote.
And so I wrote about how we did a startup retreat back in January and all that went into that, how much we spent and how we organized it and all this kind of stuff that haven't been written about much.
So that kind of stuff.
Omer (04:31.820)
If you're.
Let's say you.
You had a product where your target customers weren't other entrepreneurs and, and maybe this.
Was this applied to maybe some of the other SaaS products that you had in the past, how do you think you would have tackled this approach of creating content then?
Maybe if those customers didn't really care that much about your founder's story, what would you have done then?
Maybe.
Josh Pigford (05:00.010)
Right.
Well, I think that's the problem is that content doesn't necessarily need to be around the subject matter of your product.
So, like, I had a survey, a survey platform that I was like, was one of the previous SaaS products that I had.
Some of the content that we had right around that was like how to make surveys or like we had.
There was a customer satisfaction tool that, that I had and that would be about, like, how to make customers happier.
In reality, like that was too.
I don't.
I think the relationship between the content and the tool were trying to be too closely related.
And instead we should have been writing about the things that I think help.
Help would have helped our target market work better or to be more efficient.
And I think kind of a classic example there is so Buffer.
They've got this tool for queuing up content on social networks, but a lot of the content that they write isn't about social networks or managing social networks or anything.
They write a lot of stuff about productivity, you know, I mean, and I think that's the kind of stuff that their customers want to read.
So you have to.
I think you have to look for a different type of connection to make than just thinking, oh, well, we have a product about dogs, so let's write a lot of content around dogs.
Well, maybe there's.
That's not the exact correlation that you should be going after.
Omer (06:34.140)
You know, are there particular strategies or tactics that you've used to.
To figure out what your target customers care about to help you sort of hone your.
The content that you create?
Josh Pigford (06:49.390)
No.
I mean, I almost.
I mean, I very specifically tried to not spend a lot of time figuring out exactly what it is that customers would want to read, because I think if I start writing just to have, like, our blog is not our product.
And so it's not like I'm trying to build articles around what.
Around what somebody might want to read about.
I mean, to some extent, if somebody says, like, hey, if I find some people are asking lots of the same questions to me via email, then it's like, okay, that could make for a good article.
But for the most part, it's this outpouring of what I happen to be experiencing at the time.
And so it's very not forced.
And I think that's one of the reasons that it works so well, is that it's honest.
And it's just this, like, here's what my experience has been, take it or leave it.
And I think, like, that honesty, I think kind of strikes a chord for people.
Omer (07:51.640)
Okay, but, you know, as you said, you know, a lot of the times you don't have to necessarily create content which is, you know, tied to, you know, at the hip with the product.
So hypothetically, let's say if I had a product which was, I don't know, some kind of SaaS product for doctors.
Right.
What advice would you have for me in terms of going out and saying, okay, here's the kind of content that you should be thinking about?
Josh Pigford (08:20.450)
I mean, I think, like, the problem.
So I would say what you shouldn't do is just create a massive amount of content around necessarily.
Okay, so like, say, illnesses or something that may not be what the doctor's after.
So if you've got a product for doctors, maybe writing stuff about, I mean, it could be how to further your education as a doctor, or maybe is it related to how to manage customers better or how to build a team or something like that?
I don't know.
I think that's the problem is it's hard to build.
When you try to build this content marketing strategy, I think the only people that can really do that are the people who are intimately familiar with that industry.
And I think it's hard to come up with this plan or method that works cross industry because I think every single one of them is different and you just have to keep trying stuff until something sticks.
But I think it's more important to write stuff that other people can't duplicate.
I think that's probably the bigger deal is you just need to produce stuff that some ghost writers journalist can't produce the next day.
Omer (09:53.140)
How much time do you spend writing content in a typical week?
Josh Pigford (09:57.300)
So typically it's about 25% of my time.
So I'll usually, I've been taking a break the past couple weeks, but typically we try to publish on a Wednesday.
And so like a Tuesday morning, I'll spend basically like all of a Tuesday and, and part of Wednesday writing, getting a proofread, you know, getting the images together.
We've been recording a podcast that goes along with each article lately.
And so I'll record that and just kind of the whole process there about 25% of my time.
Omer (10:33.390)
And then do you have like, kind of like a backlog of ideas that you work on or, or do you sort of sit down every Tuesday morning and say, okay, I'm going to spend a little bit of time brainstorming and coming up with the idea for this week.
Josh Pigford (10:47.070)
It kind of depends.
I mean, I do have a big backlog of ideas, and a lot of times what will happen is like, Monday I'll have picked the article idea out, and then Tuesday I'll wake up and be like, dad, I don't really want to write about that.
And I'll pick something else on the spot, or I'll think of something completely that I had not thought of before and start writing about it.
Or I'll start writing about the idea that I had picked and then realize, this is.
This just doesn't work and pick some other idea.
It's.
It's not nearly as organized as I would like for it to be now.
Omer (11:23.040)
You know, from reading some of the stuff that you've created, you know, it sort of seemed to me like this was something you enjoyed doing and it seemed to come fairly naturally to you.
Is it something that you find pretty easy to do?
Josh Pigford (11:38.320)
You mean like writing the content?
Omer (11:39.920)
Writing content, yeah.
Josh Pigford (11:41.200)
Yeah.
I think the hardest part is starting, uh, you know, it's easy staring at a blank word processing page and waiting for it to turn into, you know, 1200 words?
Uh, I think that's the most daunting part.
After I kind of get started and I've written the first couple paragraphs, it's.
It comes relatively naturally after that.
So.
Yeah, and I've got, I mean, some of my, my background.
I used to run a tech publication for a few years, and so I've.
I've got a decent amount of experience with producing content.
Omer (12:12.260)
Can you walk me through a little bit of the process that you go through when you, when you write?
You know, do you.
Do you do some kind of outline?
Do you mind map?
Do you just start writing straight away?
What's the process that you go through?
Josh Pigford (12:27.220)
Sure.
So a lot of times I actually try to write the headline first and it usually gets tweaked a little bit by the.
By the time all is said and done.
But for me, like, the headline sums up the thing that is interesting that would make somebody want to read it.
Because in reality, if the headline is not engaging and doesn't seem to speak to what somebody might want to read about, then it might not be worth writing about.
So I'll usually write a couple of headlines and then just start writing.
Sometimes I'll do big, high level, like the headlines and subheaders within an article just to kind of get an outline, but for the most part, I just start writing as fast as I can.
Omer (13:19.470)
And then typically.
How long does it take you to get that first version done?
Josh Pigford (13:23.310)
Anywhere from.
Probably the fastest I could get a first version done is about an hour.
Um, I think the longest it took me.
There was one article a while back that, that I had written.
I mean, I spent a couple of hours writing it.
I recorded.
So like recorded an audio version of it for the podcast.
And then that evening, so my wife will proofread stuff and she read.
She read it and she's like this, this just doesn't make any sense, Josh.
And like, oh, no.
And then like, you're right, it doesn't.
And so that was about like 8 o' clock at night.
And I redid the whole thing over the next couple hours.
And that was, that was brutal.
But I think what came out was a lot better.
But so that was like this, that was a process where I spent basically an entire day's worth of time just writing and then rewriting.
Omer (14:16.680)
And then.
Do you write directly in the WordPress interface or do you have like tools that you use?
Josh Pigford (14:24.120)
So we don't use WordPress, but I have, have.
What is the name of that writing app I use, it's called Ulysses.
It's a Mac app, but it's like a sort of a minimalist writing app that I can full screen it and focus in on just writing.
Omer (14:46.580)
Okay, so you get the content published every week and then what are the sort of steps you guys go through to promote that content once it's published?
Josh Pigford (14:56.940)
Yeah, so we have a newsletter on the blog that you can drop in your email address on and then all of our customers.
So between the newsletter, our customers, and then my personal Twitter account and then the Parametrics Twitter account, that's kind of what we share everything across.
We have a Facebook and a LinkedIn page too, but those are kind of useless.
But that's the most part is we just would get it all queued up to send out a newsletter in the morning and then between probably about six tweets across a couple of different accounts.
And that's, that's basically it.
Omer (15:40.560)
So the, the podcast that you record, is that just a, you know, an audio version?
Exactly.
Word for word of the, of the article that you publish?
Josh Pigford (15:52.200)
Basically, yeah.
Yeah.
So it's.
I'll occasionally add some additional commentary on certain bits, but for the most part it's kind of.
It started because in the past year I've kind of gotten, I've gotten more into listening to podcasts.
And one thing that always I enjoy listening to podcasts, but I don't enjoy listening to really long ones.
And I think a lot of times tech podcasts, I mean, there's some that are like two hours long and it's just, they're the worst.
So I wanted something that was bite size.
Most of these are less than 10 minutes.
And I mean you listen to that at one and a half or two times speed and you can knock that thing out in no time.
So that's kind of.
It was sort of self serving in the sense that I figured I would like.
I wish that there was a podcast, a business podcast like that because I don't listen to business or tech podcasts for the most part because they're all so stinking long.
So that was.
Yeah, I knew that there were different ways that people like to consume content.
So it's relatively easy to produce those.
And so that's what we do.
Omer (17:03.050)
And how's that working for you right now in terms of, you know, the popularity of the, of posts versus podcasts?
Josh Pigford (17:12.890)
Yeah, I mean there's it.
The podcast listener listen count is, I mean, pales in comparison to the blog itself.
And I think it's.
It's kind of hard to quantify it.
You know, it's.
You can't really tell, like, did somebody find the Bare Metrics site or the product because of the podcast?
Who knows?
But, you know, it takes relatively small amount of time for me and it's sort of like a new distribution channel.
And the feedback that I get every time we post something is, you know, people saying, oh, I love.
I'm glad you have the audio version.
You know, so it's.
It's sort of like, it's easy to produce.
So I figure, why not?
Omer (17:54.550)
And how much of your time do you spend, you know, guest posting or getting content published in other places?
Are you still doing that?
Josh Pigford (18:03.030)
Zero.
None.
I can't.
Omer (18:05.670)
I hadn't seen one for a while.
Josh Pigford (18:07.030)
So, yeah, there's a couple of people who I have told I will write a guest post for.
I just haven't gotten around to it.
It's hard for me to get motivated to write guest posts for other people because I'm like, well, I could post that on our own blog.
And it's hard to find people that have the exact sort of audience that we're after.
So, yeah, it's kind of hit or miss.
And it's.
I'm trying to not spend as much.
I mean, 25% of my time just on content is already too much.
So I'm trying to scale back some.
Omer (18:43.510)
And is it proving to be a useful channel for acquiring new customers?
Josh Pigford (18:50.070)
Yeah, it's the number one method, along with maybe closely followed by, or probably might be tied with word of mouth, but it drives a ton of traffic and customers for sure.
Omer (19:05.130)
Okay, so even though you're sharing the content primarily with people on your list who maybe a significant chunk of those are already your customers, and people following you on Twitter who are already aware of the product because they're following you, it's still turning out to be a good way for you to reach new customers.
Presumably because people are sharing this content with other people as well.
Josh Pigford (19:31.080)
That's exactly it.
Right?
It's, you know, people post it on Reddit or hacker news or they, you know, they tweet about it themselves and.
Or, you know, it'll end up in other newsletters or.
I mean, like, I think founders as a sort of a market, founders in general are really good about sharing stuff.
And so if they find something that's super useful, they're super quick to share it themselves.
So it kind of self perpetuates.
Omer (20:03.410)
Okay, great.
All right, Josh, it's time for our lightning round.
I'm Going to ask you a series of questions and I'd like you to answer them as quickly as you can.
Are you ready?
Josh Pigford (20:12.010)
All right, ready.
Omer (20:13.090)
Great.
What's the best piece of business advice
Josh Pigford (20:16.370)
that you ever received under promise and over deliver?
Omer (20:21.100)
What book would you recommend to our audience and why?
Josh Pigford (20:24.140)
The War of Art by Steven Pressfield.
Omer (20:27.820)
What's one attribute or characteristic in your mind of a successful entrepreneur?
Josh Pigford (20:32.620)
The ability to make something out of nothing.
Omer (20:38.140)
What's your favorite personal productivity tool or habit?
Josh Pigford (20:41.980)
Waking up early, like 5am early.
Omer (20:45.190)
What time do you go to sleep?
Josh Pigford (20:47.190)
Like maybe nine.
I'm an old man.
Omer (20:52.150)
Well, you have kids, right?
Josh Pigford (20:53.830)
Yes.
Omer (20:56.710)
So if you had to start over tomorrow, what type of business would you go and build?
Josh Pigford (21:01.510)
I don't know.
I was thinking about this one.
I mean, honestly, I'm really happy with the path I'm on, but I always have like a soft spot in my heart for anything analog.
Like, like, like farming.
I think I was like, I don't know.
Part of me thinks in a different life I would be a farmer.
Omer (21:18.600)
You know, I was watching the.
This movie yesterday.
What was it called?
Ingredients.
Josh Pigford (21:24.920)
Oh, yeah.
Omer (21:25.600)
Which is a documentary about this sort of, you know, how.
How farmers aren't even classified as a occupation anymore.
Josh Pigford (21:33.280)
They fall into the so tiny.
Omer (21:35.120)
The other category because they're like less than 1%.
But how important that's becoming now and that there's more and more of a demand for people to wanting to eat locally produced foods and stuff like that.
So maybe there's a business opportunity.
Josh Pigford (21:51.880)
Maybe so.
Omer (21:53.560)
All right, what's an interesting or fun fact about you that most people don't know?
Josh Pigford (21:59.080)
I built and ran a popular social network for.
Wait for it, pug owners, pugspot.com.
Omer (22:10.600)
all right, and finally, what is one of your most important passions outside of your work?
Josh Pigford (22:16.200)
So I kind of off the farming bit.
Gardening.
I have a substantial garden and then I like to do a lot of woodworking.
Omer (22:24.280)
Great.
Josh, I want to thank you for joining me today and sharing your experience and insights with our audience.
And thank you for letting us get to know you a little better personally as well.
Now, if folks want to find out more about BARE metrics, they can go to.
You have baremetrics.com now as well as well as IO.
Right, right.
Josh Pigford (22:44.930)
Everything goes to the.com now.
So yeah.
Omer (22:46.730)
Baremetrics.com when did you get that, by the way?
Josh Pigford (22:50.130)
So I bought it.
I was able to acquire it back in, I think it was September.
And then I think about a month ago, four or six weeks ago, we made the switch from the IO to the dot com.
Omer (23:03.220)
How much did you have to pay for that?
Josh Pigford (23:05.220)
Six hundred and sixteen dollars.
Wow.
Was a steal.
Omer (23:09.380)
Wow.
Yeah.
I spoke to Peter Coppinger, who is the CEO of Teamwork.
They're an Irish based SaaS business, and they had been working on, I think it was teamwork, PM.net or something like that, and they wanted to get the domain.
Teamwork.com sure.
And they ended up having to pay, I think it was close to three quarters of a million dollars to get that.
Josh Pigford (23:36.600)
Insane.
Omer (23:37.120)
It was unreal.
Josh Pigford (23:38.400)
And I spent the better part of a year kind of trying to get it.
I would randomly email the whoever was on the guy that was on the whois info, and I never heard back and ended up using GoDaddy's domain buying service or brokerage to do it because the domain happened to be registered at GoDaddy.
And it worked.
I mean, within, like, I think it was a couple of days of me making a bid, I think I put my high bid as like, five.
I said I would spend up to 5,000 on it and got it for 600 bucks plus some fees.
Omer (24:15.260)
That was a steal.
And the rate that you guys are growing at that price would probably go up every year.
Josh Pigford (24:20.780)
What was crazy was like, this was after we had announced the $500,000 in funding.
So the guy who owned the domain, if he had done a single Google search, would have seen that I had $500,000 in my pocket.
I could have.
I could have spent substantially more than 600 bucks on a domain.
Omer (24:39.390)
All right, so if you want to check out Bare metrics, get to bare metrics.com and if folks want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Josh Pigford (24:48.270)
Josharometrics.com or hit me up on Twitter at Spigford.
Omer (24:57.040)
How do you spell that?
Josh Pigford (24:58.320)
S, H, P, I, G, F, O,
Omer (24:59.920)
R, D. Oh, sh.
Josh Pigford (25:01.520)
Okay,
Omer (25:03.920)
cool.
I should know that.
I'm following you.
Josh Pigford (25:07.200)
I don't know anybody's Twitter handles either, so that's fine.
Omer (25:10.800)
All right, great, Josh.
Thank you.
And I wish you continued success.
Josh Pigford (25:14.160)
All right, thanks for having me on, Omer.
Cheers.
