Omer (00:11.840)
Welcome to another episode of the SaaS Podcast.
I'm your host, Omer Khan and this is the show where I interview proven founders and industry experts who share their stories, strategies and insights to help you build, launch and grow your SaaS business.
Today's episode is part two of the interview with Andrew Wilkinson.
Andrew is the founder of Metalab and Flow.
Metalab is a design agency that Andrew founded when he was just 20 years old and has grown it into a business with over 60 employees.
Metalab is the design team behind Slack, which is now worth $2.8 billion.
And Flow is a task management SaaS application for teams, which, which is used by companies like Etsy, Tesla, Adobe and Ted.
In this episode we talk about how Andrew built three multimillion dollar businesses by the age of 30.
How he only works five or six hours a day and gets eight hours of sleep every night.
We also talk about how Andrew went from thinking that he could be successful at anything, having some failures, and then learning how to focus on what he was best at.
And we'll also talk about how Andrew embarrassed himself once in front of Steve Jobs.
And with that, let's bring on Andrew.
Now let's talk about your other business, Flow.
Where did the idea for that come from?
Andrew Wilkinson (01:43.320)
So I've always been a list maker.
I really like having everything laid out clearly and I really like systems.
And so a couple of years ago, I guess it was in 2010, I got obsessed with getting things done by David Allen and I implemented their whole system.
And I mean, the basic tenets are, you know, you don't trust your brain.
So everything in your entire life, whether it's work or personal, goes into this system.
And then you process the tasks and you turn them into projects and you have next steps.
And so at any time, anywhere, you always know what the next steps are on whatever project or whatever situation you're in.
And I really, I really enjoyed that.
And I found that it really, it made me far more productive.
But where it broke down was with my team.
So at the time I had a team of about 10 people.
And I was stuck where we had basecamp for kind of our general client interaction and stuff.
And then we had email and then I had my system.
And so I had all these different buckets where I'd keep tasks and I would, you know, let's say that I needed someone on my team to do something.
I would send them, I would make a note in my system in Omnifocus, the system I was using for gtd, and I would make A note for follow up, and then I would email them and then it would just kind of go into the abyss.
I had no way of tracking their progress.
I was always sending out annoying emails, bugging everyone.
And so my original goal with Flow was actually I never even envisioned it as something we would launch public.
I literally went over to one of my developers and I said, hey, I want to build like a really hacky to do system where I can just delegate to everyone.
And so all I wanted to do is to be able to delegate to the whole team and let them manage their tasks however they wanted.
And so we started building that and we pretty quickly realized we were onto something no one had really done, like a truly social to do list where you could have comment threads and discussions and that kind of stuff.
And so we ended up launching it into beta.
And I would say, like, when I mentioned, like strategic misfires, probably the biggest strategic misfire that I made was thinking that this would be a product that could be for anyone, not just for businesses and teams.
So we launched it originally as a product where anyone could use it to collaborate with anyone on anything.
And so you could plan a party or you could, I don't know, plan your office or you could do a home renovation with your wife or whatever.
And, and it's not that that's not a good idea.
It's that nobody really wants to pay for that.
There's a lot of people out there who view task management or to do lists or whatever you want to call it as a commodity.
They expect it for free.
And so when we launched, we pitched it that way and we had, it kind of attracted the wrong kind of customer.
So we had a lot of very passionate users.
None of them wanted to pay for the product.
And we very quickly realized that the people who did want to pay for the product were businesses and teams.
And then that's where it delivered the most value.
And so about two years in, we kind of pivoted all of our messaging and we restructured the app a little bit to be more focused on that.
And since then we've seen much better growth.
Omer (04:55.500)
Now, we talked earlier about how you had built Metalab into a multimillion dollar business, but you've had several other businesses and we mentioned those earlier.
So Flow is one of them.
Is Flow a seven figure business as well?
Andrew Wilkinson (05:13.830)
Yeah.
Omer (05:15.110)
And you had, you launched Ballpark as your first SaaS product and I believe you sold that now.
Andrew Wilkinson (05:21.830)
I did, yeah.
Omer (05:23.590)
And then you've had the.
The Pixel Union is.
Was that what.
Remind me Again, about Pixel Union.
Is that the.
The themes?
Andrew Wilkinson (05:35.510)
Yeah.
So it was funny, actually.
So David Karp, the CEO of Tumblr, was dating a girl in Victoria who he'd met somehow.
And I happened to know this girl.
And so we all went out for dinner and I got to know David, and at the time we were just using, like, at Metalab, we were using Tumblr personally, all of us.
And I ended up designing a really simple free theme.
And that free theme did really well.
And so we, when I met David, he said, look, we're launching this premium theme store.
You should put some themes in it.
And I didn't know what the opportunity was.
I was like, oh, this will be a good way to make an extra thousand dollars a month or something.
And it turned into a multimillion dollar business.
Omer (06:21.160)
Now, most people would be happy if they built a multimillion dollar business in their lifetime, and you've done it several times over by the age of 30.
You know, I guess a lot of what you've done goes against conventional wisdom where you're told to focus on one thing.
And here you are with, you know, you've diversified a business, and as you said, that that actually helped.
Helped you.
But what about you personally?
How do you, how do you focus or split your time across all of these different businesses?
Andrew Wilkinson (07:06.240)
Well, I mean, I'm pretty, I'm pretty lucky that I've been able to build the team that I have.
So, I mean, the way I look at it is I'm a very, very good starter.
So I love, like, the initial stages of building a product or a service, and I get very excited about things, but I like jumping around a lot.
And so unless I have really great people who can come in and actually do the follow through, all my products would be absolute failures if I didn't have that.
So I'd be nothing without my phenomenal team.
I'm, I'm.
I'm always struggling and fighting my urge to, you know, I kind of have, what do they call it, like, shiny object syndrome.
So I always love starting a new thing.
And, you know, my whole executive team, like, slaps their forehead because every week I come in and I say, guys, we've been thinking about this wrong.
We've got to get into, you know, whatever.
And I've had many, many harebrained schemes.
What I've learned over the last five or six years of diversifying and always starting new businesses is that I only do have a finite amount of time and that I need to actually think through and evaluate Opportunities a little better.
And I think I've gotten much better at that.
But like, you know, as an example, I had a couple early successes and so I figured I could do anything.
And so my girlfriend from like, I think it was like six or seven years ago really wanted to start her own online business.
And we, we have some, we had cats at the time and we, we decided, okay, we're going to make an online cat furniture store.
And so I made this, this website.
It was like a designer cat furniture store and it was a colossal failure and I lost probably like 20 or $30,000 on it.
Total waste of time.
So I've done, and I've even, I've had all sorts of silly ideas about like skin cream and all sorts of stuff.
Ultimately what I've realized is I'm very good at certain things and I'm not good at others and I should spend my time on the larger opportunities.
And so I, I've really learned to zero in on those.
Omer (09:12.440)
So if you were starting over today and knowing what you know about the way you work and being a starter and having people around you who can help with the follow through, how do you think if you were launching a new business today, how do you think you would do things differently?
Let's say you haven't had the success, you don't have the revenue from those previous businesses.
How would you tackle things?
Would you try and hire somebody as quickly as possible?
Would you try to stay focused on just one idea for a year or two?
What approach would you take?
Andrew Wilkinson (09:55.190)
Well, I think it's really easy to give other people advice.
So with companies I've invested in or with friends, when they sit down and they tell me their problems, I'll often give them a whole bunch of advice that I never follow myself.
So stick to the knitting, don't do that, don't get distracted, Hire the right people, whatever the advice is.
It's a really difficult question, I think to ask someone in retrospect.
What is it about what you did that worked?
What would you tell someone who's starting today to do?
Because I think it first off completely depends on the type of business.
So if they're starting a venture backed startup, I have a very different answer than if they're bootstrapping.
My way of doing things has always been higher when it hurts.
I really connect with 37 signals.
I guess now basecamp with Jason and David and the way that they look at things, they talk about hiring when it hurts.
Staying small for as long as you possibly can.
You're far more productive when you have a small team.
And so the way I've always built companies is that I'll start it, I'll try and pull together a very small team and make everyone work really hard to do everything and then slowly hire over time.
But at the same time, if you want to go big and build a huge company, there's a lot of structural stuff that needs to happen.
And so, for instance, if you told me nine years ago that we were going to have an HR team, that that would seem really weird.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe if I was starting a business today and I'd gone out and raised a bunch of money and, or I'd put a bunch of money in personally and I was planning on it, you know, this had to be $100 million business or something.
I think that I would go out and I would hire a great, you know, vice president of HR people Ops or whatever you want to call it, and I would build out that team early.
But I don't know.
I mean, honestly, like, my advice is if someone just wants to build a great, simple business and bootstrap, I would say do it all yourself for as long as you possibly can and know your weaknesses and hire, hire accordingly.
Omer (12:08.270)
Now, you.
You came onto my radar a few years ago when I read a blog post that you wrote, um, and it was titled, you don't have to make yourself miserable to build a great company.
And in many ways, it was a very courageous article because in there you talked about how, you know, you.
You wake up around 1pm, always get eight hours of sleep, head over to the office in the early afternoons and work five or six hours, and you never work at weekends.
And, and yet you've had so much success.
And in many ways, I think you attributed a lot of that success to when you were able to let go and work fewer hours and become more disciplined about how you use the time that you had available.
And what I loved about that article was obviously, first of all was just what you've been able to accomplish and the successes you've had.
But also it was very, as you, as I think you said in the article yourself, it's kind of almost sacrilegious to admit to doing that because, you know, we're in an industry where the majority of people will tell you, you have to be working eighty hundred plus hours a week, you have to sleep under your desk, you shouldn't be getting enough sleep, you should be sleep depri and all of these things.
So I'M curious and I think in there as well, I think you may have mentioned, you know, you don't like sort of talking that much about your, your sort of, I guess, these habits.
Why did you decide to write that article?
Andrew Wilkinson (14:03.030)
Well, I mean, it felt kind of sacrilegious to be honest, to come out and say that.
I think that saying that you're like, the way I look at it is I'm strategically lazy.
So I spend my time, I try and focus my time on things that deliver the highest amount of output possible and I try to enjoy the rest of my time.
And I realized that if I'm sleep deprived that, you know, I could work eight hours and I'll only get four hours worth of work done.
Whereas if I've had a full night's sleep and I work five or six hours, I can get maybe 10 hours worth of work done.
So for me, it was kind of a public declaration of coming out and saying that I did the same thing when I wrote my piece Unicorns versus Horses.
Basically saying, look, I don't want to come out and build a billion dollar company.
I'm perfectly happy building a business that makes enough money for me and my employees and is going to be worth a lot someday.
But it's not a go big or go home cover of Forbes magazine kind of thing, but it is, it's sacrilegious.
And I personally find that there's this kind of toxic expectation that, you know, you, if you run a startup, you don't have time for personal relationships or friendships or sleep or any of these.
Even now there's trend of drinking your food, like Soylent powdered food.
I mean, it's neat.
It's neat, but it does say something about the startup culture.
And so at Metalab, from day one, I've always said to everyone who works here, keep your own schedule, sleep as much as you want, work when you want that.
We do not work on other people's schedule because I want everyone to produce the highest caliber of work.
So it's very unconventional, but, you know, obviously we've been able to produce a lot of great stuff and you know, I can't speak for everyone at the company, but there are a lot of people who have very unconventional schedules, just like me, where they decide to work late at night or, you know, they sleep in or whatever it is.
But yeah, that's, that's just how we've done it and it's, it's worked out great for us.
Omer (16:07.320)
And to be clear, you know, you're not Able to work five or six hours a day because everyone who works for you is working 12 hours a day.
Andrew Wilkinson (16:13.750)
No way.
No, not at all.
We offer that to everybody.
And you know, some people do work longer hours because they get really inspired once in a while.
And hell, I sometimes will work a weekend because I'm really excited about something.
But I find that this whole idea of like self flagellation of whipping yourself and saying I should always be working and that I can't be a complete balanced human being, like, I find that very toxic.
And I think it creates a lot of very, like, I know a lot of very successful people who are just absolutely miserable because they don't have balance.
Omer (16:47.690)
What kind of reaction did you get to that article?
Andrew Wilkinson (16:51.450)
I think it was relatively, I mean, it got shared a lot, partly because it was so controversial, but I didn't, I actually, I think the reception was generally positive.
I think a lot of people hear that and they are relieved, like they're not the only one.
They can come out and say it as well.
Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I'll, I'll, I'm going to continue saying that.
I hope, and I hope that I can continue to be successful and keep my crazy schedule and keep working smart, not hard.
Omer (17:24.069)
Yeah, I, I think, you know, and I think, you know, personally, from my experience, you know, I came from a, a corporate environment where there was a similar kind of culture and in, in many ways it was kind of like, you know, working long hours was a badge of honor and, and being sleep deprived was something that, you know, some people boasted about and it just never seemed right to me.
And so, you know, I always loved reading that article and sort of, as I did the research for this interview, it was great to go back and, and read it again.
And I think the point is, you know, if you're, if you're working long hours and you're happy, you know, great.
But even then, I think I've always felt like there has to be more to life than just working.
Right.
Andrew Wilkinson (18:16.840)
Well, that's the stuff that, you know, meditation.
And I'm sure that people who don't meditate are going to listen to this and roll their eyes and think we're.
But I honestly do find that when I'm getting really stressed, so sometimes I'm at the office and I'm reading, you know, 100, going through a hundred different emails, and every single email is someone telling me, andrew, we need this from you, or we need that or this isn't going right.
And it's just A box full of problems that I can still walk outside.
I can do a lap around the office, and I can look around and listen to the wind and connect with whatever is around and that all those problems just kind of drift away and that ultimately that stuff does not matter.
I mean, obviously it matters within the context of the business, but in terms of your life, I don't really think that it's that meaningful.
Omer (19:07.380)
Now, you wrote that a couple of years ago.
Has your kind of work routine changed much over the last couple of years?
Andrew Wilkinson (19:16.500)
Yeah, it's funny, I actually.
So I'm getting married and my fiance and I.
My fiance has managed to kind of like get me on a more normal schedule.
So now we go to bed at like midnight and wake up at 8 or 9 in the morning, which is very odd for me because I've always been a total night owl.
But I also, I also stopped drinking like about a year and a half ago, and I started meditating and doing, you know, just kind of paying a little bit more attention to physical happiness and stuff.
And it's been.
It's been great for me.
Like, I still love staying up at night, but I'm on a more normal schedule now.
Cool.
Yeah.
Omer (19:57.670)
I think the thing that changed for me was having kids.
Well, actually, there was two things.
One was when I met my wife and she told me that, that.
That everything, I kind of.
My whole identity was built around my work, which is kind of like a wake up call.
And then, you know, even when I initially, you know, when we had kids in the early days, it was about.
It was like, I need to do all the stuff, you know, in terms of feeding and bedtime and whatever, so I can make time to do all the other things that I want to do.
And then there was this wake up moment for me when I realized, no, spending time with my kids was the other thing that I wanted to do.
It wasn't something they just try to
Andrew Wilkinson (20:41.540)
get out of the way.
Well, yeah, you get into that kind of, you know, you're walking like one and a half speed.
Like, you're always just trying to get everything done so you can get back to work.
And instead of just being present and enjoying whatever it is you're doing, like, even for me, like washing dishes and listening to a podcast or even just washing dishes on its own, it's kind of an enjoyable thing.
I don't know why, but when you're thinking, God, I got to get back to work and, you know, you've got this whole war going off in your Brain.
It's not very enjoyable.
Omer (21:11.150)
All right, Andrew, it's now time for our lightning round.
I'm going to ask you a series of questions, and I'd like you to answer them as quickly as you can.
Andrew Wilkinson (21:19.400)
Sure.
Omer (21:20.200)
Okay.
What's the best piece of business advice that you ever received?
Andrew Wilkinson (21:25.080)
So I didn't have a quote earlier, but Richard Branson always says, screw it, let's do it.
I always really like that.
I think it's kind of wrong.
I think that you shouldn't always just do it, but certainly when you're starting out, you kind of have to just say, screw it, let's do it for just about everything so that you can learn.
And basically, I think a lot of people get caught up in just not starting.
They overanalyze, they get analysis paralysis, and they spend three months researching and thinking an idea to death.
I've always just kind of just started, and I've always connected with that idea.
Omer (22:01.660)
What book would you recommend to our audience and why?
Andrew Wilkinson (22:07.660)
I think Rework by Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansen.
The 37 signals basecamp guys is probably the best business book that I've ever read.
It just completely breaks through all the bullshit in every.
You know, there's so many different themes in business books that are far too complex.
They're like, it's literally just back to back to back, wonderful advice on how to just get stuff done and run a great company.
Omer (22:37.300)
What's one attribute or characteristic in your mind of a successful entrepreneur
Andrew Wilkinson (22:44.110)
moving forward?
Like, constantly being generative and starting new things?
I think that, again, like, the people who I see who fail, they're too analytical.
They get caught up in overthinking everything instead of just continuing to take small steps forward.
Omer (23:01.870)
Did I. I hope I don't mess up here, but did I sort of come across something with you where you had said if you get an idea and you take some small action, sort of immediately, you're more likely to make progress on that?
Andrew Wilkinson (23:17.840)
I think so.
I think I maybe said that in a previous interview or something.
For me, though, that's exactly it.
Like, it's when I get an idea, if I don't take action on it within, like, two hours, it's never going to happen.
So I've had all sorts of great ideas for companies and stuff where if I don't go and I don't jump into Photoshop and, like, make a logo or buy a domain or tell someone I'm going to do it, I find it just never happens.
So I always try and make like an initial, kind of like dive in, headfirst into the pool and learn how to swim.
Omer (23:49.220)
What's your favorite personal productivity tool or habit?
Andrew Wilkinson (23:53.540)
Well, I think I'm a little biased, so flow.
My favorite personal productivity habit.
I would say Inbox zero.
Inbox Zero is basically.
I mean, there's a bunch of different ways to do it, but I think Merlin Mann popularized it like six or seven years ago.
But basically just a system for treating your inbox, your email inbox, like a physical inbox on your desk that you have to clear out.
You need to take everything and turn it into an action.
I would say that's one of the key things for me that's allowed me to actually deal with the volume of emails that I get and not be stressed out all the time.
Omer (24:29.400)
And then what do you do?
You convert those emails into actions.
Inside flow.
Andrew Wilkinson (24:33.730)
Yeah, exactly.
Omer (24:35.250)
Okay, if you had to start over tomorrow, what type of business would you go and build?
Or maybe put another way, what are some of the other ideas going around in your head that you wish you could be working on?
Andrew Wilkinson (24:49.250)
I mean, I find artificial intelligence really fascinating.
I saw a startup that I think is really cool.
It's called X AI and it's basically a virtual assistant that is artificial intelligence.
So basically I would email you and I say, hey, Omer, let's grab lunch next Thursday.
CCing my assistant to follow up.
And it looks, feels, and sounds like a real virtual assistant, but it's all artificial intelligence.
I saw that and I was like, this is so amazingly cool.
So I get really excited about that.
One other thing in artificial intelligence that is really neat is IBM Watson.
And you look at, like, its ability to accurately diagnose illnesses.
It's almost like a super doctor that's read every.
Every single medical journal in the world up to date up to the second.
And so I like the idea of creating an app where you can punch in all your symptoms and have it diagnose you.
That's something I always think about, but who knows if I'll ever do anything with that.
Omer (25:52.480)
What was the website of that first company you mentioned?
Andrew Wilkinson (25:55.360)
It's X AI.
Omer (25:57.970)
Just the letter X. Yeah.
Andrew Wilkinson (25:59.570)
They're still in beta, but I think you can probably tweet at them and get in.
Cool.
Omer (26:05.250)
What's an interesting or fun fact about you that most people don't know?
Andrew Wilkinson (26:08.930)
What's an example?
Like, what do other people say?
Omer (26:12.290)
You hear all kinds of crazy things.
Well, I used to break dance when I was a kid and I was terrible.
Andrew Wilkinson (26:16.850)
No way.
That's Amazing that I once embarrassed myself in front of Steve Jobs.
Omer (26:25.390)
Did you?
Andrew Wilkinson (26:26.030)
Yeah, it's actually pretty.
Pretty funny.
Omer (26:28.830)
So you gotta tell us.
I know it's the lightning round, but we gotta pause for that.
Andrew Wilkinson (26:33.230)
Okay, so as I said earlier, I was running this tech news site when I was a teenager.
So I'm 15 years old and I walk up to Steve Jobs and they've just announced the fifth, what is it, the 12 inch MacBook or.
No, it's called the PowerBooks.
The 12 inch PowerBook and the 17 inch PowerBook.
Without thinking, I say, Steve, Steve, are you a 12 inch man or a 17 inch man?
And he just gives me this completely bizarre look, dead silence, and stares at me.
And then I'm like, oh, I mean, the laptops, the laptops.
And he's like, oh, yeah, I have both.
But anyway, it was very awkward and uncomfortable.
Omer (27:11.420)
That's a great story.
And then finally, what is one of your most important passions outside of your work?
Andrew Wilkinson (27:18.070)
Um, you know, this is going to sound really cheesy.
I really love my dog.
My dog is like.
He brings me so much joy.
Like, I don't know, I just love, like, walking my dog, hanging out with my dog.
I don't know, playing guitar.
I read a lot.
I don't know.
Omer (27:35.030)
I thought you had a cat.
Do you have a cat?
Andrew Wilkinson (27:36.550)
Oh, I have cats too.
That's right.
The dog's taking priority.
I love my cats too.
They're awesome.
Omer (27:43.430)
All right, great answers, Andrew, I want to thank you for joining me today and sharing your experiences and insights with our audience.
And thank you for letting us get to know you a little better personally as well.
Andrew Wilkinson (27:52.360)
Of course.
Thanks so much for having me.
Omer (27:54.360)
Yeah, it's been a blast.
Now, if folks want to find out more about your businesses, I guess they could start by going to metalab co or getflow.com and if they want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Andrew Wilkinson (28:10.520)
Just email me.
It's andrewetalab Co.
Omer (28:13.960)
Awesome, Andrew.
Thanks again.
I wish you continued success and congratulations on getting married.
Andrew Wilkinson (28:19.170)
Oh, thanks so much.
Omer (28:20.690)
Cheers.
