Will Van Der Sanden, Dux-Soup

From Side Project to 7 Figures With a Freemium SaaS

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Episode Summary

Will Van Der Sanden spent years building technical products that nobody could understand - until he built a simple freemium SaaS tool for his wife's book-selling business. That side project became Dux-Soup, a LinkedIn automation Chrome extension with 80,000 customers and seven-figure revenue.

In this episode, Will reveals how he hit $1M ARR in just two years by keeping the product simple and affordable, why an influencer discovered him organically and became his biggest growth channel, and how LinkedIn shut down his personal profile - yet he kept running the business for nearly a decade.

Will Van Der Sanden is the founder and CEO of Dux-Soup, a LinkedIn automation tool that helps B2B sales professionals find and connect with potential customers at scale.

Before Dux-Soup, Will spent about eight years as a developer at two different startups that both fizzled out. He also built his own product called Swivel Script, a desktop automation tool for call center workers. It was technically solid but too complex to explain, and it never gained traction.

Then in 2014, Will built a simple scraping tool to help his wife find contacts for her book-selling business. When people kept telling him they wanted the same thing for LinkedIn, he pivoted the tool into a Chrome extension focused entirely on LinkedIn lead generation. He put it on the Chrome Web Store with a freemium SaaS model - a free version with basic features and a paid Pro edition - and people started downloading it.

Within six months, Dux-Soup was generating around 5,000 euros per month, enough for Will to go full-time. The Chrome Store handled distribution and payments through Google's built-in infrastructure, keeping the barrier to try and buy as low as possible. An influencer named John Nemo discovered the tool organically and started promoting it, which combined with word of mouth from happy users drove rapid adoption.

Will did everything himself for the first two years - development, support, bug fixes, even remote troubleshooting via Chrome Remote Desktop. He worked every weekend and brought his laptop on every family vacation. But the freemium SaaS approach paid off. By keeping the product focused and affordable while competitors charged 8-15x more, Dux-Soup hit $1M ARR in just two years.

The growth also attracted unwanted attention. LinkedIn contacted Will with legal threats and shut down his personal profile. Will consulted a lawyer, confirmed the threats had no real legal basis, and chose to sacrifice his LinkedIn account rather than shut down the business. To this day, he runs a LinkedIn automation company without a LinkedIn profile.

Now, nearly 10 years later, Dux-Soup has over 80,000 customers, a team of 20+ people, and continues to generate seven-figure annual revenue - proving that a focused freemium SaaS can scale without outside capital.

Topics: Bootstrapping|Product-Led Growth

Key Insight

Will Van Der Sanden built Dux-Soup into a seven-figure bootstrapped SaaS by launching a freemium Chrome extension on the Chrome Web Store, where built-in Google Payments and zero-friction distribution let him reach 80,000 customers and hit $1M ARR in just two years without a sales team or external funding.

Key Ideas

Will spent 8+ years at startups that failed because the products were too complex to explain - Dux-Soup succeeded because it did one thing simply
The Chrome Web Store provided built-in distribution and payment infrastructure, eliminating the need for a custom billing system
An influencer discovered Dux-Soup organically and promoted it for free, triggering word-of-mouth growth across multiple geographies
Competitors charged 8-15x more for harder-to-use products with poor support - Dux-Soup won on simplicity and price
LinkedIn shut down Will's personal profile after threatening legal action, but he kept the business running for nearly a decade without a LinkedIn presence

Key Lessons

🛠️ Build a freemium SaaS that explains itself: Will's previous products failed because they required lengthy explanations. Dux-Soup succeeded because users could download it from the Chrome Store, try it, and understand the value in minutes.
💰 Use freemium SaaS pricing to undercut complex competitors: Dux-Soup charged 8-15x less than competitors who offered bloated, hard-to-use products with poor support. The low price matched a focused feature set and opened the market.
🚀 Leverage marketplace ecosystems for distribution and payments: The Chrome Web Store gave Dux-Soup built-in discovery and Google Payments for subscriptions, eliminating the need to build custom billing or drive traffic independently.
🤝 Attract influencers by building something genuinely useful: Influencer John Nemo discovered Dux-Soup organically and promoted it without payment. Influencers actively seek products that make them look credible to their audience.
⚡ Wear every hat as a solo bootstrapper to survive the early years: Will did development, support, testing, and infrastructure alone for two years, including working weekends and vacations, until revenue justified hiring a support person.
🎯 Solve a simple problem instead of building a complex product: After 8 years of building technically impressive but hard-to-sell products, Will found that a simple scraping tool his wife needed turned into a seven-figure business.
📉 Prepare for platform risk when building on someone else's platform: LinkedIn shut down Will's personal profile and threatened legal action. He consulted a lawyer, stood firm, and kept the business running for nearly a decade despite having no LinkedIn presence himself.

Watch the Episode

Chapters

00:00Introduction and background

02:52Favorite quote - "See a need, fill a need"

03:25What Dux-Soup does and who it serves

04:15Business metrics - 80,000 customers and seven-figure revenue

05:28Previous startup failures and the Swivel Script lesson

08:27The developer's curse - building before validating

11:55Building the full customer journey, not just the product

13:15How helping his wife led to the Dux-Soup idea

17:10Why a Chrome extension was the right distribution model

18:57Freemium model and Chrome Store payment infrastructure

20:58Influencer John Nemo discovers Dux-Soup organically

23:20The two-year journey from side project to $1M ARR

26:49Cold outreach and list buying - what did not work

30:18Winning on price and focus against bigger competitors

34:42The intense reality of solo bootstrapping for two years

38:29Hiring the first employee to professionalize support

40:13LinkedIn threatens legal action and shuts down Will's profile

45:52The ethics of LinkedIn automation and platform risk

50:03Lightning round - books, productivity, and business ideas

52:39Wrap up and where to find Will

Episode Q&A

How did Will Van Der Sanden come up with the idea for Dux-Soup?

Will built a simple scraping tool to help his wife find contacts for her book-selling business. When people kept asking for the same tool on LinkedIn, he pivoted the product into a Chrome extension focused entirely on LinkedIn lead generation.

How did Dux-Soup use a freemium SaaS model to reach 80,000 customers?

Will offered a free version with basic LinkedIn scraping and a paid Pro edition with automation features. The free tier let users try the product in a few clicks, and Google's built-in payment system made upgrading frictionless.

Why did Will Van Der Sanden's previous startups fail before Dux-Soup?

Will spent about eight years at two different startups building technically solid products that were too complex to explain. The products required extensive training, and each new customer needed the same lengthy explanation cycle.

How did Dux-Soup hit $1M ARR in just two years as a freemium SaaS?

Will combined a low-barrier freemium model on the Chrome Web Store with organic influencer promotion and word-of-mouth referrals. Competitors charged 8-15x more, so Dux-Soup's simplicity and affordability attracted users who became immediate advocates.

What role did influencer marketing play in Dux-Soup's freemium SaaS growth?

An influencer named John Nemo discovered Dux-Soup organically through LinkedIn groups and started promoting it to his audience. Will did not pay him - John promoted it because recommending useful tools strengthened his own credibility.

How did LinkedIn respond to Dux-Soup's automation platform?

LinkedIn contacted Will with legal threats citing terms of service violations. After consulting a lawyer who confirmed the claims had no legal basis, Will chose to sacrifice his personal LinkedIn profile rather than shut down the business.

What pricing strategy helped Dux-Soup win against larger competitors?

Will intentionally priced Dux-Soup at 8-15x less than competitors. The low price was justified by a focused feature set, and it gave him an entry point into a market dominated by expensive, complex, and poorly supported tools.

How did Will Van Der Sanden manage a freemium SaaS business as a solo founder?

Will did all development, support, bug fixing, and infrastructure himself for the first two years. He used Chrome Remote Desktop for troubleshooting and divided each day into focused blocks for different tasks - support, development, and testing.

What lesson did Will Van Der Sanden learn about building products that sell themselves?

Will learned to build the entire customer journey - from discovery to trial to purchase - as barrier-free as possible. His previous products failed because they required explanation, while Dux-Soup succeeded because users could download, try, and buy in minutes.

Book Recommendations

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

by Douglas Adams

Links

Dux-Soup: Website | LinkedIn | X
Omer Khan: LinkedIn | X

Full Transcript

Omer Khan [00:00:09]:
Welcome to another episode of the SaaS podcast. I'm your host Omer Khan and this is a show where I interview proven founders and industry experts who share their stories, strategies and insights to help you build, launch and grow your SaaS business. In this episode, I talk to Will van der Sanden, the founder and CEO of Ducksoup, a product that helps B2B sales professionals find and connect with potential customers on LinkedIn.

Omer Khan [00:00:35]:
Back in 2014, Will was a software developer trying to get various startup ideas off the ground and he was getting increasingly frustrated because nothing seemed to stick. Around that time he also built a simple tool to help his wife find customers for her book selling business and he had no idea his side project was about to change everything. Will Van Der Sanden an opportunity to adapt the tool for LinkedIn. He turned it into a Chrome extension and put it on the Chrome web store and people started downloading it.

Omer Khan [00:01:03]:
The tool gained steady traction and within six months Duck Soup was generating enough revenue for Will to quit his other work and focus on it full time. But the first few years were tough. Will did everything himself, writing code, doing customer support, and trying to get the word out. He worked long days and weekends, and even when he took his family on vacation, he he always had to bring his laptop along. Eventually, all that hard work started paying off.

Omer Khan [00:01:28]:
The Chrome store helped the tool spread quickly, and Will teamed up with influencers to reach even more people by keeping the product simple to use and affordable. Duck Soup hit the first million in ARR in just two years after launching, but success came with its own problems. LinkedIn eventually found out what Will was doing and threatened legal action and shut down his personal profile. But Will Van Der Sanden firm and to this day he runs a LinkedIn automation company without having a presence on the platform himself.

Omer Khan [00:01:59]:
Now, almost 10 years later, Duck Soup brings in seven figures in revenue, has more than 80,000 customers, and a team of over 20 people, and the business is totally bootstrapped. In this episode, you'll learn how Will Van Der Sanden a gap in the market and filled it with a focused, affordable product when everyone else was selling expensive, complicated solutions. Why building Duck Soup as a Chrome extension was a game changer for getting users on board and handling payments.

Omer Khan [00:02:28]:
How Will dealt with the tricky business of building on LinkedIn's platform and dealing with those legal threats why putting in the long hours and wearing all the hats was crucial in those early bootstrapping days and how Duck Soup walks the line between the ethical concerns of LinkedIn automation and helping sales pros do their jobs better. So hope you enjoy it will. Welcome to the show, Omar.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:02:52]:
Thanks for. Thanks for having me.

Omer Khan [00:02:54]:
My pleasure. Do you have a favorite quote, something that inspires or motivates you that you can share with us?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:02:59]:
Yeah, absolutely. It's a quote from. Actually from an animated movie or it's not really cartoon, but it's a. See a need, fill a need. It's from the Robots movie and I actually came across it when I was just starting up with Duck Soup and I thought, yeah, that's exactly it. So, yeah, for me, it was very inspiring.

Omer Khan [00:03:25]:
See a need, fill a need. Love it. Nice and simple. So tell us about Duck Soup. What does the product do, who's it for, and what's the main problem you're helping to solve?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:03:33]:
So Duck Soup is a piece of software that helps you to find customers on LinkedIn. It's targeted to, especially B2B sales development people who are looking to reach out to people on LinkedIn and do that at the scale so that by automation you can reach out to many people and you basically are able to, well, pick out those responsive prospects that you could then continue the conversation with in a. In a usual sales role.

Omer Khan [00:04:15]:
Give us a sense of the size of the business. Where are you in terms of revenue, customers, size of team, the size of the business?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:04:21]:
Well, I'll give you some context. So we nearly hit 10 years that we're running, and we built a customer base of around 80,000 and an annual revenue. Okay. Revenue in the seven figures. And we're doing this all at the moment with 20 plus employees, though not all full time, but, yeah, it's a big team day. So working on this now.

Omer Khan [00:04:48]:
And so the business you said founded 2015, you haven't raised any money, right? The business has been bootstrapped?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:04:55]:
Yeah, fully bootstrapped. No external money at all? No.

Omer Khan [00:04:59]:
Great. Okay, so let's talk about where the idea for this, this business, this product came from. And I know it wasn't a straightforward journey. You had some other attempts at trying to build startups and products before you got here. So maybe kind of tell us a little bit about that journey and some of the things you worked on before you came up with the idea for Duck Soup.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:05:28]:
Yeah, sure. So my background is in software development and especially product development. And in that role, I worked at a number of software companies or startups where I saw a repeating sort of problem occurring. And those companies where I was part of the initial team that actually built the initial product and this offering that we were building and building and we would never really get the traction and so that, yeah, these businesses, they all ended up fizzling out. Even though I always felt that the products, the process that we built were solid.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:06:13]:
But yeah, we just, we couldn't sell it or explain it.

Omer Khan [00:06:17]:
So that was. You were part of a startup and trying to get this thing off the ground. How long were you working on that?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:06:27]:
I think about four years in one company and then another four in another one in a similar sort of. Yeah, a similar context as a sort of head developer of a small team.

Omer Khan [00:06:42]:
Right. And then you also had an idea for another product and you spent some time building something yourself.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:06:49]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, as a developer and especially when working in the, in the product development and you know that you built, and you can build stuff that is, that can do some things that customers really would really like. It is just, it's felt very well, I find it quite frustrating and it drove me to try another product once the previous one failed.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:07:18]:
And always sort of keeping in mind how the other products ended up failing, but always still believing that surely, yeah, if the technology works and the product does something useful, then we should be able to get this off the ground. So, yeah, there was a number of times where really we found that we built something that did something that was a bit more technical very often. So it wasn't like the product was not easily understood by the customer.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:07:55]:
And yeah, there was, was always a struggle, always, always pushing uphill, uphill struggle to get this first, to get this explained. And then even after the first sale of one customer, the next customer would have to go through the same, the same cycle of explanation. And yeah, that meant, yeah, you were just, yeah, you were bound to fail because it was just too complex.

Omer Khan [00:08:27]:
What was the product that you were building at that time?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:08:30]:
The one that I talk about now, the last one was called Swivel Script.

Omer Khan [00:08:35]:
What did it do? You got to explain it to me now. Right.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:08:39]:
It was basically a tool that allows you to script together different web applications using JavaScript on the, on the desktop. So you could basically optimize processes by automating some copying and pasting and making sure that the user of the system was always presented with the right application at the right time. The end users were, generally speaking, people working in a customer service center or call center. And those people tended to use quite a lot of different applications.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:09:17]:
And there was a lot of, well, it was a steep learning curve for them to know which one to use. And so there's a lot of training involved and then a lot of room for error to get to the Right System to copy the data. So it seemed like a slam dunk to come up with a solution there. But it turned out that it was. Yeah, it didn't succeed, let me put it that way.

Omer Khan [00:09:51]:
So a lot of I talk to founders who are non technical and they'll say my problem is I don't know how to code. And then I talk to founders who are technical, who are developers and they say my problem is I know how to code. And so often I, you know, it's easier for me to build something than to go and spend time talking to potential customers and doing the validation stuff. Did you go through a similar process?

Omer Khan [00:10:17]:
Like did you spend time talking to customers trying to figure out what specifically what to solve or did you get to be like, I understand the problem, I can go and build it, I'm just going to go and do that. Like which kind of approaches you take.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:10:32]:
It was probably more the I know the problem, I can build it approach initially, although I was always, always quite often, well in a customer facing sort of role as well. But then the customer that he ended up talking to was tended to be the end user while the actual customer they're trying to sell to is. Tends to not to be the end user, at least not in the sort of software that I was working with, a server script. So I would say the. Yeah, it's definitely.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:11:07]:
Well, the benefit of being able to code yourself is that you can more quickly try different approaches, try different products so you can throw them away. When you're just. When you're only the thinker and not the developer, then there's going to be a lot of confusion or problems explaining what you want to the two a developer and well, if it's a co founder then you should be able to do that as well. I mean clearly lots of people do that like that.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:11:43]:
But there's a big benefit I find obviously being a developer that yeah, you can just quickly try new ideas and then try them out and throw them away if it don't work.

Omer Khan [00:11:55]:
You also said you had a really hard time explaining or communicating the value prop to customers. And it was an uphill struggle all the time having gone through that experience and then also now having gone and built duck Soup. When you look back at that, what was one lesson you feel you maybe learned about the just generally how to, how to do a better job at communicating with customers about your product?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:12:21]:
I think the main, well yeah, one of the main things really is that to not just build a product but you really need to think about and Build the entire. And I know it's a bit of a cheesy term, but the customer journey. So from the customer hearing about your product to go to your website to try new products and then telling other people about it. And so it has to be as, yeah, as barrier free as possible. If.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:12:57]:
Yeah, by just putting a product out there that people can download and then have no idea how to use. And always so complex, is so feature rich that they require training that is just not where you want to start, at least not in my experience.

Omer Khan [00:13:15]:
Great. So you had a number of, I guess, false starts trying to either working on somebody else's startup or your own products to get that off the ground. And then where did the idea for Duck Soup come from?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:13:30]:
Well, actually the idea came. My wife was at that time trying to set up a business selling, mainly selling books to schools and she, well, she needed a way to get a list of schools or a list of contact people to contact at schools and also a way of actually getting to engage with them. And she ended up getting basically some cheap labor via Fiverr or something like that to in effect copy and paste lists from.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:14:09]:
Well, from in those days you still had Yellow Pages but a number of different resources that you could use to find A businesses and then B the contacts with contacts within the business that you could then try and talk to. And I figured well that sounds like a horrible thing to ask someone to do to copy and paste it. And so I figured, well let's. And then I built an initial version of Docsoup that would actually work against different systems, not just LinkedIn but also Yellow Pages and other ones for that purpose.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:14:48]:
So basically a list builder.

Omer Khan [00:14:51]:
So what was it doing? Was it just kind of web scraping?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:14:54]:
Yeah, scraping and putting it in Excel. That was always the, the sort of the key from what people needed were lists in Excel. I mean I think people still use Excel a lot, maybe less so now than 10 years ago. But to go from having. Well, from different systems like in Lexington Yellow Pages or Google or the other system, I can't think of the names anymore. But if you can present that to someone, well, there's all the data in Excel, then they can work with that.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:15:36]:
So it turns the sort of scattered data into a usable list and it's only a small value prop in a way, but that, yeah, well, it mostly got me the thinking when I was talking to people about this and that and that's when I heard that, well, LinkedIn was really what people were after in terms of where they go to platform to finding these lists. Yeah, so what we found in, we're talking about the products at that time, as I said before, I was always looking for products that could be of interest to customers.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:16:21]:
So, um, it turned out that especially LinkedIn was popular for this list building exercise or just generally finding leads. It was this, pretty much the start of the whole social selling wave at that time. So yeah, I decided to basically just tweak the product or make it focus on just doing LinkedIn. And when doing that, I was looking at the other products in the market that were, well, obviously filling that particular need. And I found that there were some basic automations that people needed.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:16:58]:
And so I added those, which was not a massive, a massive amount of development. And before I knew it, I had it all in the Chrome web store and it was ready for people to try out.

Omer Khan [00:17:10]:
So this was a Chrome extension, because that's an important distinction as well, that you and I were talking about this earlier, that LinkedIn doesn't have an API and so it's not particularly easy to go and integrate with the platform. You have to kind of have these workarounds. How easy or hard does that make your job in terms of building this product?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:17:35]:
Well, it definitely makes it challenging. There are a number of factors that are at play. As I said, there is no API. Well, there was an API at some point, but that API has been cut into basically being a really pointless API.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:17:52]:
And that combined with the fact that there was a clear demand for people to run some sort of automation on LinkedIn, that just meant, well, it was an extra technical hurdle for the competitors to take, which, well, for me made it also more interesting of something to try because jumping in a really crowded marketplace is obviously a lot harder to, to get noticed and when there's, when it's clearly not super straightforward.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:18:22]:
So, yeah, building the initial development, especially around the detection or anti detection elements, there were several aspects of the product that were really just built to work around or with LinkedIn so that people would not get banned. That was a big, big part of it.

Omer Khan [00:18:42]:
Okay, so you've got this product in the Chrome store. Did you start charging for it right away? Was this a free tool initially? How did you get started initially with that?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:18:57]:
No. So initially it was free? Well, there was a free version with basic functionality that was already quite useful and then people could pay for additional, basically additional features. It was the pre, the freemium model that people use and it just meant that for people to try out the product and get a feel of what it does, it was really just a matter of a few clicks to go from learning about Duck Soup and then actually trying it out to see if it would do what they were after.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:19:35]:
And I think that was quite key in the initial uptake that the barrier to actually just trying out the product was really, really low on purpose. There was things also around using the Chrome app Store. Chrome was a big. Pretty much the standard already then people already had Google accounts, so there was like a whole sort of ecosystem that ducksuit just all worked in and that the audience was also working in. It just meant that it was a really. Yeah, really a low barrier to try it out.

Omer Khan [00:20:13]:
So putting a product into a marketplace like the Chrome Store is great for distribution if people can find it. What was your experience with that?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:20:22]:
Yeah, people generally didn't find it really via searching for or searching in a web store or searching Google even. I think most people found it because they heard via. Well, at that point I was working with an influencer called John Nemo who was really. Well, he was very active, great guy. I mean he was super, super active on all. Yeah, you know that these. Some of these influences, they. That they can be really overwhelming. But it's really good for getting the word out.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:20:58]:
And he was really excited about Duck Soup and it was that combination also with the fact that the people who tried it out generally became immediate advocates as well because at least for those who downloaded and tried it, it did what it said on the tin and they would just tell the colleague, oh yeah, if you want to do some work on LinkedIn with getting data or working with some bit of automation, you should try this. It's really easy. And so most of the initial growth really came from that.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:21:31]:
From this sort of word of mouth and also the influencer marketing where in different geographical regions we suddenly started seeing all this uptake.

Omer Khan [00:21:46]:
How did you meet John? How did that relationship come about?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:21:49]:
I really just went on LinkedIn and posted about. About Duck Soup and yeah, the. When the exact. It must have been just. Yeah, me reaching out or talking about Duck Soup in the context in different. In different groups on LinkedIn really sort of the same principles that we teach our own customers on how to get your real message in front of the right people. It's. Yeah, but anyway, it was a lot more manual. But yeah, it must have been one of those groups, I think probably. And where John then.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:22:35]:
Yeah, picked it up and got in touch.

Omer Khan [00:22:37]:
So this wasn't. Did you have to pay him or was this. He was just interested in the.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:22:43]:
Yeah, it's. I Mean, I think you'll find it in many markets where there's always influencers who are always on the outlook or on the lookout for products that work and do something that people are really looking for and that is not really super commonplace. It's also for the influencer that they are showing that, well, if you listen to what I'm saying, then at least you can see what's hot, you can get a competitive advantage. And so these guys are always looking for products.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:23:13]:
So he saw that there was a clear value in, in telling about Duck Soup.

Omer Khan [00:23:20]:
I think that's the best thing, right, to find somebody who's naturally interested, who wants, you know, wants to be kind of part of the journey and you know, provide feedback and test this thing. I mean you can't ask for more. From what I understand, from the point where you got started with this business to hitting the first million in ARR, it was about a two year journey. Were you. At what point did you start working on this business full time?

Omer Khan [00:23:52]:
When did you realize that this was more than just a tool that you'd built for your wife to something that had some business potential? And given your experience with several false starts that we talked about earlier, what gave you the confidence that this was the thing that you were going to jump in with both feet and commit to?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:24:14]:
So I think it was about half, half a year in from the initial release to actually, yeah, going at it full time. And so it was also, I mean just to come back on the sort of the fit with the ecosystem. What was so nice again in lowering the barrier is by fitting in with the Chrome web store you automatically add the. An easy way for people to pay for the product. Basically.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:24:43]:
We yet do some work to obviously to integrate with that, but lots of people had already the payment details in Google which meant that prompting a customer to subscribe after they used it for people that to purchase it was really again as barrier free as I could get it. So. And that just meant that yeah, you slowly saw people subscribing over these initial months. Up to a point where I think I reached probably about 5,000amonth. €5,000.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:25:24]:
At which point, yeah, given the also the way that the uptake went, I thought well, I'm going to have to try this one.

Omer Khan [00:25:35]:
It seems to be sticking the payment infrastructure you talked about. So that was just built into the store and it was like Google Payments or whatever and you could actually set that up for subscriptions as well.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:25:48]:
Yeah.

Omer Khan [00:25:49]:
Okay. That makes life a lot easier, doesn't it?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:25:50]:
Yeah, absolutely. It's obviously for people need to be able to buy your product and if the ecosystem already provides you with a payment engine then yeah, that makes it a lot easier.

Omer Khan [00:26:10]:
Okay, great. So six months in and you're like, okay, there's enough revenue here now to give me a strong signal that this business has a lot more potential. I'm going to go in and work on this full time. It was just you at the time. You're still obviously bootstrapping, self funding the business. What was the next step? How did you continue to grow, get to the first 10k?

Omer Khan [00:26:39]:
Was it just doing more of the same, working with influencers like John and trying to get this word of mouth out there or was there anything else that you did?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:26:49]:
I think there was the. Well, generally getting a web presence. There was more than just a WordPress website. There was quite. Just to give the brand a bit more of a status and also make it more recognizable for the customers that this was actually a company behind this product. But I think the main part of the growth was really I did all the support myself at that time as well.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:27:22]:
So I, I would hear of all the things that were wrong or people that people were asking for and then yeah, just a matter of making sure that, well, you take away all those things that don't work and you add things that do work that people ask for obviously within having some vision yourself of where you're aiming for. And so that's.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:27:44]:
Yeah, that way the Pro edition, which was the paid version at the time, just got richer and richer and supported more and more scenarios and more people ended up being willing to go for the paid version because of that.

Omer Khan [00:27:59]:
Now, Duck Soup wasn't the only product around at the time that had this kind of functionality. What do you think was it about this product that was resonating with people? Like what else were you seeing going on? And was LinkedIn navigator around at the time as well?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:28:20]:
Yeah, Navigator was there. The other products were generally really expensive between eight times and maybe even 15 times of what we were asking. They tended to be quite invisible in who was behind the product as in which came across a bit sketchy and the support was pretty abysmal in my experience. And the. Yeah, I would say that. But the actual products were. Tended to be not so user friendly and as what Duck Soup was offering. So it was multiple. And we also found is the. The Dachshund brand just came up but just was.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:29:13]:
Was really friendly. People really liked the brand in it being a positive. And while some of the other brands were a bit more clinical or technical. That just. Yeah, that also helped, I think.

Omer Khan [00:29:29]:
Why did you call it Duck Soup?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:29:30]:
Well, it was my wife who came up with the name and she, she was googling it when we looked for a name and there was an expression in English or actually I think it's an American expression by these. Yeah, comedians. But if you Google for the sentence easiest, Duck Soup, you'll find the sort of reference that I'm talking about. And it means something that is seemingly easy to do.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:30:02]:
And then the CK was turned into an X because of Excel because that was still the main part of the value proposition in being able to get all this data into a spreadsheet. So yeah, there you go.

Omer Khan [00:30:18]:
Okay, great. So the Chrome store is helping you with distribution. You've got influencers like John, the word of mouth also going into a market and being the cheapest is probably not the best strategy. But at this time when you're getting started, you have a new product, you know, it's a gap, it's an opening there. And you took that. Tell me about. You also tried like your own list building to reach potential customers and doing cold email and stuff like that. How did that work for you?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:30:57]:
Yeah, we tried buying some lists. Basically this was actually for the swivel script product as well, but also as part of the getting the word out for Duck Soup, buying, buying lists of companies or contacts that could be of interest and also hiring a. The marketing company to send out an email send and track the clicks and stuff like that. But. And I ended up doing some of sales calls or call schools myself as well, which was not my. Yeah, not my favorite thing to try. But you got to try these things, I guess.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:31:39]:
But yeah, the end result was always very, very. Yeah, very much nothing. And I think a lot of it is because it's because of the cold approach. Some people might even have an interest or show some interest, but they have no commitment in continuing. So when something else comes up in the day to day work, whatever you build up on these calls or in the emails just is gone within seconds. So that definitely didn't work for us.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:32:18]:
Just also quickly on the pricing, I think what's also worth one of the things I've noticed over working on Duck Soup is that because obviously you're always a resource constraint in where you can put your time and how you build your product and your business. But I think the offering of offering a product that only does a few things but does it really well at a low price. What it does give you Give you. It gives you a reason why the price is so low, because it doesn't do a lot.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:32:56]:
But if it does something that is actually very useful to a lot of people, then it does give you an entry to that market. And once you're there, then you can. That's basically what we built as well here. That's sort of the years after the next edition, which is a more involved, well, a more complex product with more features that you can sell at a higher price. But yeah, just to get a foot in the door without having any sales teams working for you. I think the.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:33:32]:
Well, for us, in any case, the approach of, yeah, like I said, having a really focused product like that really got us into that market.

Omer Khan [00:33:43]:
Yeah, I was talking to somebody the other day who was saying, I want to get into this market, but I get so put off by these big established players that have these rich feature set and where do I start? And it's like, well, if you're trying to compete with them and launch a product that has all those features, you're probably taking the wrong strategy. Right. There's probably a segment of people who only need one or two features.

Omer Khan [00:34:12]:
And if you can figure out what those are and deliver those really well and carve out your own niche, it's going to be a much smarter way to go. And then, yeah, eventually, over time, you can add more features and grow and charge more as you deliver more value. I want to talk a little bit about those first two years because I think people listening to this might be like, oh, you know, Will had this idea two years, he hits, you know, seven figures, hits the first million.

Omer Khan [00:34:42]:
Give us just a taste of what it was like in those two years. You know, you don't have yourself funded. You don't have a team.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:34:54]:
I don't have a team. No. There was basically so the. It was well. Well, obviously it was a lot of hard work. So everyone will tell you this. So what I found is really, because there was a clear pull coming from customers, the work was really not an issue at all. Just having an audience that is actually trying your products. I mean, that was just pure gold. So then just gave me enough energy to do those long hours also. Yeah, all the weekends we were always working, developing, doing support, bug fixing.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:35:34]:
I also ran the service, basically the whole technical side. My wife did a little bit of work on Twitter at that time. So it wasn't just me, just to be clear. But that was really helpful as well. Just pinging a few people here and there. And yeah, I just Found that the. Yeah, just building, doing the support calls at a set time, doing some troubleshooting, then doing some extra development. You just fill your day with lots of different sort of slices of work and then.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:36:12]:
Yeah, just seeing that the traction is still growing and growing, it just gives you plenty of energy to. To run those long work days. And also. Yeah. To take the laptop on your holiday. I mean, my family, they were actually quite surprised in the last. Well, the years after that. I wasn't working when I was on holiday because I was always working on the holiday as well. But it was really just to keep the. Keep the show running. And this is really a small. A small price to pay for. Yeah.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:36:49]:
For the years after that, so definitely worth it.

Omer Khan [00:36:53]:
How long was it before you were able to hire your first employee?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:36:56]:
Yeah, it was very intense. It was. Yeah, the. It was really a matter of just. Yeah. Dividing your time into. Because, yeah, because you're doing the. All the different roles, right. Of the business. And as a developer, you tend to. Well, it's easy to just do the development, but if nobody's doing the support, people will be unhappy because there will be bugs. Because you also do the testing, right. So you got your hands full, but there's all these balls and you gotta spend a bit of time with all these areas.

Omer Khan [00:37:38]:
So were you like, doing support calls and saying, like, yeah, I'll let our development team know about.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:37:43]:
Yeah, absolutely. No, but also on the support side, right, because it just shows how the technology that was available that was also made, it really facilitated doing all this. For example, I was using the Chrome remote support feature to do remote troubleshooting, right. Because people were running this extension locally. And as you probably know, that when people run stuff locally, there's always things that are slightly different.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:38:17]:
But being able to do all that just on my laptop from anywhere, it just meant I could actually put in time regardless of family commitments and other things that needed to be.

Omer Khan [00:38:29]:
So who was the first person you hired as an employee? What role was that for?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:38:34]:
It's a board. Yeah, yeah, it was the. Basically to take over and professionalize the support. At that time, it was just a big inmail or email box and calendly was also a big part of it. But no, but, yeah, to professionalize that and to especially take out the first line of support to take that away from me so I could just spend more time on things that were more. Well, more valuable, that would bring more value to the company. Because obviously. And the thing is, that was quite interesting.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:39:16]:
So the initial 10 or 20 customers, then it's then having just this conversation over email. You really understand where they're coming from. But at some point when there's like 100 or 200 a day, you can't have this conversation with all these people and you need to take a step back, which is quite. Yeah, that was quite a big moment, to be honest.

Omer Khan [00:39:38]:
Great. Okay, so you've gone through this journey where, you know, we talked about the attempts to build different businesses and products and they didn't work out. You came up with the idea of Duck Soup through helping your wife and then grew this business and eventually through just persistence and wearing every hat and working 12 hour days, eventually you got to the point where you found traction, product market fit and then you got the attention of LinkedIn.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:40:13]:
Yeah, well, I think that is a, that's something that especially I would say five years ago was a big, big part of this, of this journey to make sure that the product that you build does not cause trouble for your customers. Right. Because that's. Yeah, people are just tend to be really careful with their LinkedIn accounts and they put a lot of value in that.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:40:46]:
So if, if the, if the customers would have a problem with LinkedIn, then I would have a problem with the customers and the thing would all would collapse in one, in one go. Right. So there was a big part of my time in making sure that the software that was out there was as LinkedIn proof as I could get it.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:41:09]:
So yeah, and as you probably have noticed, trying to Find me on LinkedIn is also not a, it's not possible because of that, because LinkedIn got in touch and they decided that they were going to remove my profile.

Omer Khan [00:41:29]:
But why was that?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:41:30]:
Just like did with that.

Omer Khan [00:41:36]:
So did they initially contact you and just say, look, you can't do this, you can't build this product?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:41:42]:
Yeah, they came to me and they said, well, you can't do this for these, and these, and these reasons. And all these reasons were null and void. But, well, obviously a lot of legalese that you get. So I, I did end up, yeah, getting a local lawyer just to look at stuff as well. All these, the things that they were throwing at me were all not really relevant. But the one thing that they could do to stop me is to remove my LinkedIn profile. So it was either that or remove Duck Soup.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:42:22]:
So yeah, I think I took the right choice there.

Omer Khan [00:42:27]:
I mean, I don't know the full details of this, but if you're running this product and was it like arguments about you violating terms of use or something or did you feel like, you know, what you're doing is you're kind of doing things the right way? How do you feel about that in terms of why there was pushback from them? Presumably because they'd prefer everybody was using Navigator anyway. Right. Rather than any third party tool. Yeah, but yeah, so just tell me about that.

Omer Khan [00:43:04]:
And it's like, I just wonder, is this the kind of thing that still keeps you up at night even though you've still been in this business for like 10 years now?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:43:11]:
No, no, it doesn't keep me up at night. I mean we've been doing this now for a good, a good while and we have. Yeah. If after so many years you don't have trouble, then you clearly do something. Right. But the sort of, the, what I want to say is that with LinkedIn their stance on this subject is really quite two phased and so on the one hand they are selling licenses to Sales Navigator. Right by the truckload Sales Navigator is getting more and more salesy with InMail, automatic InMail follow ups.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:43:53]:
And then on the other end they are obviously trying to get the, everyone to create a profile on LinkedIn because without this fully, well, the full network of professionals on there, the network does not have value. And then they can't sell Sales Navigator or Recruiter. So, and so they, and then they mentioned that terms and the terms of service. But even that when you, when you look at it, you can't even if you were to follow them. But this, the, they're ruled by, by the rules.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:44:30]:
You can't Even systematically browse LinkedIn to be honest, if you look at retail rules, you can't use LinkedIn for sales. Basically that's what the rules say. So yeah, they are so extreme in the way that is stipulated because they clearly also want people to actually use Sales Navigator. It just doesn't really seem like a very honest principle that they have there. It's, it's more, I guess they don't want their network to be polluted with robots talking to each other. Right.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:45:09]:
Which is fair enough, but a bit of automation just to make sure that the sales people are spending time with, communicating with customers who are showing interest instead of spending their time on manually doing, sending lots of connection requests. I mean it's obvious that the sales people would prefer to do the part of the process where they add the most value, which is convincing someone who is showing some interest not in going through lists of loads of people to find the ones with interest.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:45:46]:
That part you can actually automate and that's basically what Duck Soup does.

Omer Khan [00:45:52]:
So one of the things I've been seeing with, we talked about this earlier that, you know, with LinkedIn is like, I'm getting more and more crap in my DMs from people. And I've noticed quite an increase in the last five or six months.

Omer Khan [00:46:09]:
And I think in large part is to do with AI and how easy it's becoming for, you know, people to kind of do kind of prospecting if someone's looking at Duck Soup and saying, hey, well, I think you guys are kind of making it easier for people to send this kind of spam and stuff like that. What's your response to that?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:46:31]:
Well, my response is that the purpose of using duck soup on LinkedIn is really about. It's not to spam people. It's really, first of all to make sure that you targeted the audience that could be of it that could have an interest in your product or service. I mean, there's no point in sending, I mean, sending thousands of emails or whatever out to people that are never, ever going to buy or have a need for what you're trying to sell them.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:47:02]:
So it's always, we always tell our customers that make sure that you target the relevant audience. And then it's really just a matter of very often that it maybe got the wrong person at the wrong time or some other reason why they either not picking up on the initial sort of interest that you want to get out of them. And that's fine because there were lots of other reasons why people are not at that point want to talk to anyone about their particular service or product.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:47:38]:
But if you already start out with, with a scatter approach, then, yeah, then you're going to be annoying lots and lots of people. And yeah, probably also getting your own LinkedIn account into trouble, because when enough people complain about being approached by someone who is offering services that are of no interest and they don't know this person, at some point LinkedIn will also close their accounts. I mean, that happens. Still.

Omer Khan [00:48:05]:
I agree with you. You know, I think LinkedIn is a great platform. There's so much potential there. And I think I've connected with some amazing people because of LinkedIn. But yeah, it's definitely going to be this ongoing challenge between increasing noise and then how do you do a better job at being able to connect with the right people, whether you're a buyer, seller or whatever. It's kind of a fascinating space. And yeah, it's an interesting relationship that you have, like building this business on that Platform.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:48:53]:
Yeah, it's a big challenge because obviously it's always evolving, it's always changing. We never get. They never tell us when a new update with a new feature or then they remove a feature which also happens. Right. So, yeah, it's a moving target and it can be a bit of a challenge to use it as a base for a product that you want to sell to customers. But that also makes it an interesting sort of field to work on for myself, I find.

Omer Khan [00:49:28]:
Well, 10 years, almost 10 years in, you got your 10 year anniversary next year. You're still working on this business. You're still enjoying waking up and helping customers. So that's, I think, what matters the most, right. At the end of the day.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:49:43]:
Yeah, no, it's still. Yeah. Because it's an ever evolving landscape of how people.

Omer Khan [00:49:54]:
Yeah.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:49:54]:
How they go about trying find customers and there's always new areas that you can work on.

Omer Khan [00:50:03]:
Cool. All right, we should wrap up. So let's get on to the lightning round. I've got seven quick fire questions for you.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:50:08]:
Yeah.

Omer Khan [00:50:09]:
Okay. What's one of the best pieces of business advice you've received to stay critical

Will Van Der Sanden [00:50:13]:
of your offering to avoid tunnel vision?

Omer Khan [00:50:17]:
What book would you recommend to our audience and why?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:50:20]:
For me, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is. Even though it's not business relevant, it's very inspiring in many ways.

Omer Khan [00:50:29]:
I love that book too. What's one attribute or characteristic in your mind of a successful founder?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:50:35]:
I would say listening to your customers.

Omer Khan [00:50:39]:
What's your favorite personal productivity tool or

Will Van Der Sanden [00:50:42]:
habit to divide to plan your day and to divide your day into specific work. As in to be specific tasks. Don't just go on email and be scattering, just stay focused. Do this for a couple of hours and this for a couple of hours and then you get the most done.

Omer Khan [00:51:01]:
What's a new or crazy business idea you'd love to pursue if you had the time?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:51:05]:
Yeah. Commuter traffic, entertainment. Something I've been. Yeah. Looking at when and when commuting and there must be. Yeah, there's a ton of ideas I have in how you could make that commute more enjoyable.

Omer Khan [00:51:21]:
So entertaining people while they're stuck in traffic commuting to work. Is that what you're saying?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:51:26]:
Yeah, yeah. To turn the actual being stuck in traffic into a game area by using GPS and augmented reality and other things. So yeah, I think there is something there.

Omer Khan [00:51:45]:
What idea? What's an interesting or fun fact about you that most people don't know that

Will Van Der Sanden [00:51:51]:
I've been learning how to or trying to learn how to play the guitar since I was probably 17 in a number of times I've tried it and failed. But yeah, I'll keep on trying.

Omer Khan [00:52:04]:
I've got a guitar right here. It's probably like similar. It's been, we're talking about well over a decade and I'm, I'm still like, on like a first couple of chords or something. So it's, it's been really, really a terrible, terrible thing. And finally, what's one of your most important passions outside of your work?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:52:27]:
For me, music. Both. Well, to just listening on Spotify especially and, but live, going to concerts and going a holiday traveling with my, my, my family. Cool.

Omer Khan [00:52:39]:
All right, well, well, thank you so much for joining me. It's been a pleasure, kind of unpacking the story and, and kind of sharing that journey over the last nine, almost 10 years. If people want to check out Duck Soup, they can go to Dux, which is d u x-soup.com. and if folks want to get in touch with you, it's not on LinkedIn, but what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Will Van Der Sanden [00:53:06]:
Well, you can email me, just. It's Willuxup.com. yeah, I'm always happy to talk to anyone in the. Yeah. About possible businesses or just other things, as long as you don't try to sell me anything.

Omer Khan [00:53:26]:
All right, cool. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure and I wish you and the team the best of success.

Will Van Der Sanden [00:53:30]:
Thank you. Thank you for having me over.

Omer Khan [00:53:32]:
My pleasure. Cheers.

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