7 User Flows That Drive SaaS Onboarding and Growth

Omer Khan [00:00:00]:
Welcome to another episode of the SaaS podcast. I'm your host Omer Khan and this is a show where I interview proven founders and industry experts who share their stories, strategies and insights to help you build, launch and grow your SaaS business. In this episode I talked to Peter Loving, the founder of UserActive, a UX UI design agency that helps SaaS companies optimize their user experiences to drive growth. Whether you're struggling with onboarding, activation or retention, Peter breaks down these essential flows and offers actionable insights to help you optimize each step of your user journey.

Omer Khan [00:00:47]:
You'll learn how to improve critical flows like sign up, onboarding and activation as well as how to reduce churn and and increase upgrades by enhancing core workflows and integration experiences. In this episode we'll cover how to improve your signup flow to reduce drop offs and boost conversions. Why optimizing your onboarding process is crucial to increasing activation rates and converting free trials into paying customers. What you can do to enhance your upgrade flow and make it easier for users to move to higher plans.

Omer Khan [00:01:19]:
How to reduce churn by focusing on key metrics within your core product workflow, we talk about why your integration flow plays a critical role in user satisfaction and retention and how understanding your cancellation flow can help you identify why users leave and how to win them back. Peter provides practical strategies and real world examples so you can apply these lessons to your own SaaS business and start unlocking growth. So I hope you enjoy it. Peter, welcome to the show.

Peter Loving [00:01:49]:
Hey Amir, thanks for having me. Looking forward to be here.

Omer Khan [00:01:52]:
My pleasure. This is one of those interviews that it's taken forever, forever to schedule but we made it happen. Really glad to have you here. So before we. So you know we're going to talk about the seven key user flows to help founders and teams unlock their SaaS growth. And before we get into that, why don't you just tell us about your company Useractive, what do you do, who do you help and what's the main problem that you're going out there and solving?

Peter Loving [00:02:24]:
Yeah sure. So we're a design team for SaaS companies really. So we have a subscription based design model where we become an extension of the SaaS companies team and really help level up design across the business. So we fundamentally work on product design really improving UI ux, improving conversion rates and Croatia in a product but we also support in design across the business. So website design and optimization and other marketing based collateral. So yeah, you can just think of it as a Design team for SaaS

Omer Khan [00:03:03]:
and you are based in Barcelona.

Peter Loving [00:03:06]:
That's right. I'm from London, uk, but we're based out here in Barcelona.

Omer Khan [00:03:10]:
And are your clients mostly in Europe or you're working with, you know, clients in the US and all over the place?

Peter Loving [00:03:18]:
Yeah, we have a bit of a mix actually. So I'd say probably 60% are based in the US and then, yeah, Europe makes up. Yes, more or less like 60, 40, 40 based in Europe and then occasionally we'll have, we'll have a client in, you know, based other one other places. We've had one in New Zealand and Australia too. It's just slightly trickier time zones, but we've got a pretty flexible team and some remote designers too.

Omer Khan [00:03:46]:
So yeah, that's the new world. Right? Global customer base and no sleep.

Peter Loving [00:03:53]:
Yeah. So it's good when you can wake up and see progress on things being done.

Omer Khan [00:03:57]:
Yeah, that's nice too. All right, so let's get into this and what we're going to do is we're going to talk about each of these user flows that is part of, you know, running any, any SaaS business and growing any SaaS business. And we'll just deep dive into each one, just help people understand what each one is, why it's important, common mistakes people make, the best practices and some real world examples. If we have them, we'll share them along the way.

Omer Khan [00:04:29]:
So with that, why don't we get started and just frame this thing for me and just tell me like at a high level, what is a user flow? Why is it important? Why are we even having this conversation?

Peter Loving [00:04:42]:
Yeah, good question. So really you want to think about a product as being something that users come and experience. They're using the product to get value from, they have a problem or they're looking to achieve something in an easier, faster way. And they don't just interface with the product at one moment, at one point. They're always having touch points with a product in terms of steps or a journey or a task. So we always want to design a journey or an experience that facilitates the journey or the task that they're looking to achieve.

Peter Loving [00:05:25]:
And the goal of that is to make it very easy, make it intuitive and really remove the requirement for users to have to make cognitive effort to think. So if we can reduce that, make it easy and make it flow for them, then we've done a really great job in helping them to achieve the result that they're looking for with a software. And as we've designed many, many SaaS products, what you get to see over time is that there are very common flows from one SaaS to another, very common user flows.

Peter Loving [00:06:01]:
And when you start to look at a product as a series of fl, you can then it really then helps you design an experience that's enjoyable, that's easy to use and that builds up loyalty within your user base.

Omer Khan [00:06:15]:
Yeah, I think that's a great way of framing it and just thinking about this in terms of flows. So let's dive in. The first one, sign up flow, I think everybody knows what that is. You got to get people to sign up for your SaaS product, otherwise nothing else. We're going to talk about matters. I mean, at the end of the day, every product has a sign up form, a sign up process. They're pretty much largely all the same. What kind of issues do you still see when you work with clients?

Peter Loving [00:06:50]:
I would say one of the key issues that we see over and over again is friction being present within a signup flow. So you, you can think of a sign up flow as a, as a fairly brief kind of process. But for some SaaS companies it can actually be a bit longer and require more. But it, it, we think of it as starting on the website. So visitor lands on the website.

Peter Loving [00:07:14]:
Now, is it really easy for them to just sign up and try out the product and actually get from the website to being into the account? Um, how easy is that? First of all, there's one thing you want to do is communicate the value of the product and what it can achieve and help your visitor visualize your product being able to solve their problem. Okay, does this, is this thing going to be the tool that's going to help me achieve X or Y? If that's compelling, then they'll likely take the next step.

Peter Loving [00:07:50]:
There are also some other competing factors as well, because nowadays SaaS is pretty competitive. So quite often visitors are coming with an idea of different options. So they're exploring whether your product is a solution and they might also be switching from another SaaS product. There might be another tool that's not quite delivering what they need. So your product has to position itself to solve that problem. It also depends what model, what acquisition model you're running for your software. So is it product led? Are you operating free trials or do you operate through a demo process?

Peter Loving [00:08:29]:
Do you still have a very sales led approach that you sell to enterprise? Does that sales process involve more? So that's where things can be a bit more complex. But generally speaking, you want to be able to articulate the value of your product clearly and make it easy to click on that free trial, enter your credentials and sign up and start using it right away. What other mistakes do we see? Sometimes there's unnecessary steps being, being there. There can be unnecessary steps. There can be too much information, there can be conflicting information.

Peter Loving [00:09:04]:
Sometimes you'll see on say just a website hero section for a SaaS, there'll be book a demo, there'll be a free trial button. There'll also be a try it now where you're not really sure if that's a free trial or a call. And we sometimes see conflicting call to action. So it's just about simplifying the message, simplifying the step and reducing friction for somebody to actually get inside the product.

Omer Khan [00:09:27]:
Yeah, my favorite one was a few months ago when I was checking out a new product. I came across, I got to the signup page and before I even filled out one field on the signup page there was a pop up giving me a discount for the product. And I was like, I don't even know what the product is yet, like why would I do? And it was just getting in the way, right? It was just like you could have got me in there and you're already trying to sell at the wrong time. I think.

Peter Loving [00:09:59]:
Yeah, I mean the discount, um, that would, it would be ideal if that came at a point at which you know that the free trial ended or something like that and you're trying to hook that user in or give them an offer to see if you can convert them if they haven't converted through the free trial. So yeah, it does take a lot of thinking and yeah, and simplifying and thinking about that experience for the user.

Omer Khan [00:10:24]:
We should be clear that we're not trying, you know, the goal here isn't to try and convert everybody who visits your website into a sign up.

Peter Loving [00:10:32]:
Right.

Omer Khan [00:10:32]:
That's there's no way that you're getting 100% of your traffic is your ideal customer profile and customer. So almost the purpose of the website in many ways is to qualify the right people, disqualify the wrong people and get the right people to get to the signup page to sign up. Because otherwise if you're just getting any random person to sign up, you might have an amazing sign up conversion rate. Until you look at the churn and you're like, well, they kind of all kind of, you know, don't stick around at all.

Omer Khan [00:11:05]:
And so tell me about like, so what are you looking at? So you're looking at the signup page and the conversion rate of people who visit that page to signing up.

Peter Loving [00:11:17]:
Yeah. So you're looking at website visitors to sign ups and you'd count the sign up as someone who's actually getting through and landing in the product. So yeah, was it visitor to sign up conversion rate. And I like your point about getting the right users in. So that's why the website has to communicate effectively the value and do justice to the product.

Peter Loving [00:11:40]:
So if you have a really good product but your website's really not getting that message across, then some of those users that are the right fit might not get through that step to see, to see the product. And one thing we like to do there is also just show the product on the website. So it's amazing how many software companies, they might either feel that the UI isn't sexy enough or they're not completely proud of how it looks.

Peter Loving [00:12:05]:
But we always encourage getting the product on the website so you can actually see the product, get a feel for what it is, what it does and communicate the value of it. Obviously that's a lot easier said if you have a really sexy ui, you want to show it off. But that's why we design across the whole spectrum of a SaaS company to make sure that that impression of your product is really high and that shows on the actual homepage and on the website.

Omer Khan [00:12:34]:
Yeah, yeah. Actually thinking of that, I was looking at ProfitWell metrics a couple of days ago and obviously ProfitWell is being acquired by Paddle and it's part of a bigger org. Now what I liked about what they're doing, and I don't know if it was always there, maybe it was before you sign up, they have a link to a demo of a product and it's not click a demo, fill out some form, wait for some sales rep to contact you or whatever.

Omer Khan [00:13:07]:
It's literally you click the link and you are in the product and you are, you're kind of getting a feel of some dummy data. You're able to click through the navigation and what I liked about that was that you, you, you're giving people a quick feel and what to expect before they get in. You're also avoiding this thing where you sign up a bunch of people who are just curious and tire kickers and then you're emailing them forever and nothing ever happens out of that.

Omer Khan [00:13:37]:
So I like that and I just wondered why more SaaS companies didn't do that. It seems like a great way of just saying here's a really easy way, frictionless way to get a feel of the product before you Even sign up.

Peter Loving [00:13:51]:
It's a really good point that you've just touched on. We've seen this becoming a little bit more popular now. It's this loginless demo or login list experience of the product. So we've actually been designing one. So if rather than landing on the homepage and having all of this communication and signing up for the product, if you can provide the product experience right away in the URL, the user is already in there, they're already getting activated.

Peter Loving [00:14:22]:
So it's a great way to do it, especially if you have a very intuitive product that does a easy to perform task. So one company that we work with, List Kit, they're a competitor of Apollo and you can go there to gather data on prospecting data, so emails and phone numbers of decision makers. But part of their free trial is you get some credits to actually get some data and get a feel and experience the data. But they have a really great searching functionality.

Peter Loving [00:14:54]:
So one test that we're doing is to just provide an experience of that search right on the website. So you land there and you can go straight in and start finding contacts that you're looking for. And that's essentially you're in a free trial already, but you haven't had to have that friction of signing up. So it's a really neat way for the right kind of product to get the user invested in the actual experience.

Omer Khan [00:15:22]:
Yeah. And the other one that just came to mind was carrd. So aj, who is the founder of carrd, I think he's been doing this for years. So people who aren't familiar, carrd is basically like a one page website builder. And what he does or what he did was you can go to the site, I think it's carrd with double R co, I think, and you can start building your website without signing up.

Omer Khan [00:15:52]:
So he lets you go through the process like, okay, pick a template, fill out content, do this bum, bum, bum, and then at the end, okay, you want to save this, sign up and we can keep going, or you don't care, you can move on.

Peter Loving [00:16:06]:
And yeah, it's great. I mean that's great. It gets people to see how easy it is. If you've built a really great intuitive experience, it's great for people to see how easy it is. And then also they've done a little bit of work so they might want to use that, they might not just want to abandon that process. And then it's more compelling for them to make an account. There's more incentive for them to Just sign up and say, okay, well I've made something there, I want to save it or I want to use it.

Omer Khan [00:16:31]:
So we should move on to the. We've got six more flows to talk about. But what I really like about this is I know you said track website visitors to sign up conversion, but also is it about the actual conversion rate of the signup page? Do you also track that?

Peter Loving [00:16:54]:
We do. So yeah, those pages can be pretty simple and sometimes they can even start right on the homepage. So for a lot of SaaS, you see the put your email right there in the hero section and then you put your email and you hit login and then the next thing is, okay, you're fitting in a little bit of details about your name and maybe your company and then you're in for others.

Peter Loving [00:17:14]:
You, you'll click on it and you might land on that screen which is just, you know, set your username, password, put your name and email address in. But, you know, there is an opportunity there to, to do some kind of promotional or marketing content. So on those kind of screens, we like to give a bit more of an idea of value of the product. One of the key desirable outcomes for using that software, some social proof, maybe some accolades.

Peter Loving [00:17:43]:
Companies always like to show their G2 or CAPT error, but it just makes them look, have a few credentials there. So we do measure the conversion rates of those pages too, and sometimes iterate on them, maybe test them and get a sense for what works better. That's obviously better if you're a SaaS who has a high number of visitors and a high number of signups, because when you're an early stage, you don't have high volume of traffic. Working on increments and improvements on those pages. Probably not the best use of time.

Peter Loving [00:18:13]:
It's too detailed and finite.

Omer Khan [00:18:15]:
Yeah, great. Okay. So what I love about that is we talked about some of the best practices in terms of conversion rate and testing that, tracking those metrics, but also some, I think, more innovative ways to improve that signup process, like the card example, the list kit, and you know, profitable metrics. So those are, I think, good examples of, you know, things you could do differently with your, with your signup process. So number two, the second flow, the user flow is onboarding.

Omer Khan [00:18:45]:
And so this is, we've got people signed up, but we actually need to get them to a point where they activate and start using the product. And this is where we see, you know, often low activation rates. So just kind of explain that this flow a little bit to us. And you know what, some of the mistakes you see there.

Peter Loving [00:19:06]:
Yeah. So onboarding, you really want your user to be impressed in your product. You want them to come in, you want them to get value and what you want to avoid is them signing up, landing in it, being feeling underwhelmed and also confused on what to do next. So common mistakes we see is a bit of like throwing too much information at the user. You know, they might see pop ups, they might see checklists, they might see a walkthrough, they might have like conflicting journeys and things to do. So that can be tricky.

Peter Loving [00:19:42]:
Also if there's a steep learning curve for a product user, onboarding isn't always easy. And that's really true if you, if you have a simple product that's intuitive and product LED can be a lot easier. Like say imagine Loom for an example. You're in there, shows you how to record a video. You hit record and before long you've got your first video done and you kind of feel this like, oh, that was nice and easy.

Peter Loving [00:20:07]:
But there's a lot of SaaS out there that's a lot more complex than that and has a lot of different functionality. So it does require some learning. So the challenge is, how do you do that? How do you make that easy? The other aspect of this that can be difficult for software companies is that you have different user profiles. Profiles, not all SaaS just has one type of user and those different user profiles might have a different experience, they might have to do different, you know, tasks or have different jobs to be done.

Peter Loving [00:20:39]:
So their onboarding probably needs to be different, you know, so personalized onboarding is one thing that we, we think about a lot here. Because what, what might work for one user profile as an onboarding flow will not work for another one. So that's something to be careful, especially if it's enterprise SaaS. So the more complex products with complex workflows.

Omer Khan [00:21:02]:
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think too often we see like a one size fits all onboarding journey or process. And sorry, I should say flow, that's the word we're using today, flow. Right. And often that can work. If your product is straightforward and people get it, there isn't too much effort involved.

Omer Khan [00:21:30]:
But if you've got a product that serves potentially someone who is not that tech savvy and you know, doesn't like you and me, play around with SaaS products day in, day out, they, they need a much simpler kind of experience versus someone who is a more sophisticated user. They're going to get very frustrated if you're like getting in the way of them actually just getting to start using the product.

Peter Loving [00:22:01]:
Yeah, that's true. Sometimes you can get in the way with too many journeys and pop ups and things like that. There's a couple of ways that I like to think about this to make it easy or at least give an analogy to it. One thing that we want to do with the user when they come in is to orientate them.

Peter Loving [00:22:25]:
So you're welcoming them into your product and you just want to say okay, like here's what, what you can do, here are the options and here's what's available to you and then you lead them, lead them in the right direction. So the analogy I often give is it's similar to if you went to a five star hotel. When you arrive at the five star hotel you're, you're usually impressed because the lobby is impressive, right? You walk in and you want, you're like oh wow, this hotel is, is pretty, pretty special, right?

Peter Loving [00:22:55]:
And then when you get there to check in, the person at the check in helps you sign in. You know, there's, that's a bit of hassle, usually tired, you've been traveling, you've got to give them your passport, you have to do a few things. They're going to give you a room key. So there's a little bit of logistics. But then what they usually will do is say okay so you know we've got a gym and spa, you can go to the first floor for that. There's breakfast at 7 till 9 or whatever your, your rooms.

Peter Loving [00:23:22]:
In such a place we also have these events so they kind of talk you through and make you feel comfortable, just make you aware of the facilities. Then maybe somebody's going to come and help you with your bags and then they'll show you how to go and get sentence your room. So once you're there then you're free. You're like okay, right? I do, I want to go and check out the gym or a spa or, or I think I'll go to this event. And it's really similar in a product.

Peter Loving [00:23:47]:
You just want to, you know, take away the hassle, help them feel like oh this is going to solve my problem. And for them to be impressed by the product UX ui and then you want to kind of like steer them and let them kind of explore on their own. So I usually use that as a kind of analogy to how you want to think about users coming into your SaaS.

Omer Khan [00:24:08]:
I think that's a great analogy. And I think sometimes products try too hard, right? And kind of going to your analogy would be like saying, okay, you checked in, here's where the fitness center is. Here's a map for the fitness center. Here are the instructions on how to use each piece of the equipment inside the fitness center. And all of this stuff is like, yeah, I probably want that at some point, but you're just giving me like a pile of 100 pages to go and take away with me right now.

Peter Loving [00:24:41]:
It's like a lot to think about. And the other thing is, imagine they told you about the gym and then walked you down there straight away. Okay, yeah, go and we'll show you the gym. And you're like, okay, but actually I just wanted to get my bags in the room and have a shower. So you can do that in onboarding too. Just steer them in different directions, which might not be the one that they were coming for. That problem to be solved.

Omer Khan [00:25:03]:
Yeah, yeah. And my pet peeve, which I've mostly experienced on iOS apps, but I'm sure there are SaaS products out there that do this as well, is if I've used an app and gone through some kind of onboarding, which was pretty painful and I didn't really need, was like 15 steps or something and then maybe I deleted the app and then I reinstall it or something and they make me go through all that stuff again. It's like, I just did this. I know how to use the product.

Omer Khan [00:25:38]:
I just didn't have it on my phone right now. I just reinstalled it. I want to continue using it, but for some reason they just got this really rudimentary logic, which is if someone installs the app, they must be a new user, even though we know they're not a new user. And so we're going to force them through this painful onboarding so they know how to use our product. Right. What are the metrics that are most important here when it comes to onboarding?

Peter Loving [00:26:03]:
Well, we do look at things like utilization. I mean, if, say, imagine you're running a 14 day free trial, we, we want to see that this user is logging in and they're actually completing tasks. So utilization is like, you know, how many times are they logging in? How long are those sessions? But then there's also some behavioral metrics. A lot of SaaS companies will use their North Star metric at this time. So I'll give you an example. We worked with Statstrone, that's an affiliate management software.

Peter Loving [00:26:36]:
And for Statstrone during that free trial period, they want to see how many people come in, set up their account and then add one affiliate and that affiliate can then start, you know, do you know, doing their affiliate marketing for that account. So that's one of their North Star metrics.

Peter Loving [00:26:55]:
And then the other one is like how many accounts add five affiliates because that gives them a real sense in the free trial period of how active this user is going to be, how important it is for them to get up their, their affiliate campaigns, get them up and running. So yeah, it's really good to have some kind of North Star metric that you track in that period. And yeah, and then things like login. We do, we do consider the upgrade conversions during onboarding because really that's part of the process.

Peter Loving [00:27:27]:
Some software obviously has a lot of different, you know, models. So some might have a free trial, some's a demo, some they might need to put in their credit card, you know, at sign up, we didn't touch on that and sign up. But that's also something that's often high level friction but for some companies it works better. So yeah, there's, those are the types of, those are the types of metrics activity. And then sometimes if it makes sense, the upgrades or, or conversions with onboarding,

Omer Khan [00:27:59]:
the example you gave there about adding the first affiliate to their account, that's really about whatever that time to value is. Right. So we often talk about getting users to that aha moment where they've not only signed in, but they understand how to at least complete something that demonstrates the value of your product. And I think most founders will know, okay, if I could just get them to do this one thing, I know they'll see value in this. What's the best way to track something like that?

Peter Loving [00:28:42]:
Yeah, I mean, well, it's different for each company because you learn to see the pattern of what works. And that's how, that's why it's important to choose a North Star metric that makes sense to customer success with your product. So yeah, there's just a number of. You know what's interesting is how different the North Star metrics are for each SaaS company. And it's all tied to the customer. Yeah, the customer objective or what success looks like for them using the product.

Peter Loving [00:29:20]:
But yeah, yeah, I think the best way for that is examples, you know, like for list kit that, you know, there's a free trial which includes 50 free credits. If a user comes in, does a search, uses up those 50 free credits, downloads them and then is coming Back, logging back in again and then buys more credits. I mean that can happen in onboarding, but that's obviously a really good sign of intent because with things like that, you could have somebody coming in using the credits, then they go away, they don't use the product again.

Peter Loving [00:29:58]:
They just wanted to get the, you know, get some free credits. So yeah, it's very case by case specific, that one.

Omer Khan [00:30:06]:
Yeah. And so let's, let's. We've already sort of, there's some overlap between onboarding and activation. And activation is the third flow that we're going to talk about and we've kind of already veered into that just talking about, you know, getting to that aha. Moment or value and stuff like that. So can you just explain like, you know, for people who aren't quite clear, like, how would you draw the line between onboarding and what activation is? Like, what are we trying to do?

Peter Loving [00:30:36]:
Yeah, so the main thing about activation is that you want users to be aware of your valuable features and to start using them. So it's raising awareness. It's also motivating or incentivizing users to get started on using those features.

Peter Loving [00:30:56]:
So it's those two things now that relates to onboarding because you might have a period of onboarding where, you know, something we do quite often when we're designing is during that orientation we might highlight a few key features within a product so that the user gets awareness of them and can visualize, okay, if I use that feature, I'm going to get this value out of it. And that's where activation starts. It may take a few times of seeing a feature or clicking on a screen to get familiar with it.

Peter Loving [00:31:37]:
And if that starts in onboarding, you're already working on activation, then that's a really good step to get users to actually make use of all of their, of all of the features in your SaaS that can go way beyond onboarding. Because I'll give you an example from, even from, from us, we use ActiveCampaign and I know for a fact we're not using all of the features in our plan. So there's still quite a bit of activation that's not happened and we've been, we've had our account for a year.

Omer Khan [00:32:06]:
I should just say I use ActiveCampaign and I've been a user for, gosh, 10 years and I consider myself a tech savvy user and I still feel like I'm not using a whole bunch of features, but I know they're there and I'm aware of them. So that's, I guess that box gets checked. But at the same time, I understand the core features well enough and I'm able to use them that I feel like I get value from the product. I'm happy with it. Right. So I think that's, that's also an important thing.

Omer Khan [00:32:47]:
You know, just, just because you have all of these features, it's not like you need users to use every single one. You just need to make sure that they're using, they're aware of them and then they're using the ones that they get the most value from. Right. Is that fair?

Peter Loving [00:33:00]:
Yeah, I mean, that's really fair. The thing that you don't want necessarily is that you have some really powerful features that your user would benefit from them if they use them, but they're not aware of them or they're not sure how to use them. So this happens quite a bit in Activation.

Peter Loving [00:33:17]:
Sometimes I'm surprised how often I see this because I spend a lot of time with founders in their product looking, you know, we'll screen share, we're in the product and we're having a look around, doing something like an audit before we start a big design project. I'm always surprised how many times I'll see really powerful features hidden in a settings menu or a reporting menu or somewhere in some of the core functionality of a software. And the thing is that it's ended up there because they've been working on this product for years.

Peter Loving [00:33:53]:
They've been releasing great features and functionality, and when they release them, they're working. Wasn't necessarily a section in the navigation or, you know, in the structure of the navigation that made sense. So they, they, they've kind of found a place where it, it works. So part of Activation, a lot of the work we do in activation is saying, hey, that's a really valuable feature. And the founder will be like, yeah, this is, this is one of our best features. And we're like, well, we need to pull that out, surface that feature, highlight it.

Peter Loving [00:34:23]:
It should be in the main navigation. If you, you have a mega menu menu of features, we want to bring that out front and center. We might have a screen dedicated to it with an empty state which explains the feature and then has a nice call to action to get started on a, you know, get started on the flow to actually doing that. So activation can be quite a big part of, you know, the jobs to be done in doing, delivering great software.

Peter Loving [00:34:50]:
And that's one of, that's one of the things I Find a lot good, good features and functionality that users are maybe not aware of or don't know how to find them.

Omer Khan [00:34:59]:
Do you think there's a danger with that where you can end up like what we talked about earlier, where you want to highlight these features, but now you've given the user 100 navigation links that they could potentially go to?

Peter Loving [00:35:12]:
Yeah, well, this is what happens when I often call this like a sprawling navigation. So what happens when you have a software company that's either shipping and releasing really quickly, you have a big dev team or you've been operating for years? Sometimes I'm speaking with founders who've been operating their SaaS business for 10 to 15 years. And over that time a navigation can get pretty cluttered.

Peter Loving [00:35:36]:
So a good exercise is to kind of sit back, take stock of all of the functionality, group them into say, three to five top level categories, and then underneath those, organize them, even if you need to categorize them again. But, but you see this with tools like, yeah, like ActiveCampaign or HubSpot or some of these, you know, big software companies and what they start to do is segment out the product. So you've seen this with both of these companies.

Peter Loving [00:36:07]:
They'll have a sales plan and a marketing plan and then a kind of CRM and then you can bundle them up together and get those plans. So this does get a lot more challenging as your product grows. But yeah, that's why it's so important to kind of take a step back and logically assess, you know, is our navigation logical? Is it easy for somebody to just get a sense of, you know, what the features are?

Peter Loving [00:36:33]:
Is it cluttered and yeah, sometimes, you know, if you don't do that over a long period of time, the job is a lot bigger, you know, when you do have to go back and restructure that navigation. But it's a really valuable and worthwhile piece of work to do.

Omer Khan [00:36:49]:
One thing, I mean, it strikes me is that you've mentioned conversion rate optimization. You've got to be AB testing all the time really to know from what you described, there's so many different ways you could implement a flow. There's no one size fits all answer where you can. Oh yeah, Peter can go to any SaaS product and say, oh, move this link from here to here and your activation will skyrocket.

Peter Loving [00:37:17]:
Right.

Omer Khan [00:37:18]:
It's a matter of trying different things and testing and seeing what works. The one thing I've noticed with conversion rate optimization tools, most of them have moved so upmarket that if you're an early stage founder, you're gonna have to spend thousand bucks a month or something to get access to some of these tools. I remember Optimizely used to be, you know, a great product. I mean I think they had a free plan, it was pretty affordable and now it's like, you know, they're focused on a completely different type of customer.

Omer Khan [00:37:55]:
Do you have any favorite tools that you might recommend?

Peter Loving [00:37:58]:
Sometimes I'm surprised how often it's Google Analytics still within a product. So some goals set within there. We've been using Bare Metrics, one of our client accounts, so they were already using it and then set us up with, you know, user profiles for their company so that we're in the Bare Metrics account, checking it and using it. We've used Heap on another project before. I think those are the main ones. Oh, Stripe. Believe it or not, you get some really good analytics from, from Stripe.

Peter Loving [00:38:34]:
So you can kind of see, especially if you're segmenting plans, you know, how many users are on which of the plans. We've been optimizing a pricing page recently, so we wanted to see the conversions and which plan they end up signing up on and what's the split between, you know, the, the three different plans. And you can actually get quite a bit out of, out of the Stripe analytics. So sometimes it's a combination. But yeah, you're right, some of those tools, they get pretty expensive, pretty complex, can be, you know, quite technical to set up.

Peter Loving [00:39:07]:
So and one, one thing, what you see is like you don't always get accurate data from them. So even from those we've seen some, some, some, some tools where the data we kind of know that it's not right, but not really sure why. So that you can have. Yeah, it's not really an easy thing, so it can be a bit challenging.

Omer Khan [00:39:30]:
Yeah. Okay, great. So let's, you mentioned plans, let's talk about that. The next flow is what you call the upgrade flow. What, what are we talking about here? Because we've kind of got them, we've got them onboarded, we've got them through activation. Are we, why did, why does kind of upgrade fit in at this point here?

Peter Loving [00:39:53]:
Yeah, sometimes there can be some overlap, some crossover depending on the product, depending on the acquisition model. But upgrade flow, essentially it's that moment at which you're taking the user on the journey of the buying decision. They might start to feel like, hey, this tool is the right solution for us. We figured we can get the results from this tool. So they might go to that upgrade. Now, there can be a variety of steps to get there, because if you're operating a free trial, there's a time bound aspect to this.

Peter Loving [00:40:35]:
So whether that's seven or 14 days, you come to a point at which they're forced to make that decision. If you have a freemium model, though, that's more open, so your upgrade flow can start in many different places. And then also for demos where if you have a kind of sales LED approach or some kind of hybrid approach, then this varies a bit too.

Peter Loving [00:41:00]:
But it's really that buying decision and how you take them through that journey within the product activation can still happen after, because sometimes you want to activate a user on a plan as well. So say you take your free trial and then you upgrade to a premium plan.

Peter Loving [00:41:19]:
You really want to activate that user the minute they sign up to make them feel like that was a good buying decision and now they're invested because the last thing you want them to do is upgrade and then feel like, oh, yeah, I'm still not kind of sure was this right? And then not really get busy in the product, so want them to get active. So that's why we really think about upgrade flow as a very. A very critical user flow for SaaS.

Omer Khan [00:41:45]:
I want to try. Maybe you have an example here that you might be able to share. And it is hard because like you just said, there's different. People could upgrade at different points depending on what type of product you have, what type of model you. You have. It could. It could happen, you know, three, six months after they've been using a free plan or a basic plan or whatever. Or it could happen right at the point where they're using the product for the first time. One thing I've experienced is. Have you.

Omer Khan [00:42:22]:
You ever watch Frasier, the TV show?

Peter Loving [00:42:25]:
Yeah. Yeah, love it.

Omer Khan [00:42:26]:
So there's this. There's this episode with Frasier and his brother Niles, and they go to this exclusive spa or some kind of, you know, membership thing, and they're like, so excited to get into this place. And they're there and, you know, soaking all up, and then they see a door and they ask somebody, what's that door? It's like, oh, that's for our VIP people. Wait a minute, I thought I was a vip. It's like, suddenly this experience that they were having feels lame because there's a better experience there, right?

Omer Khan [00:43:00]:
And then it's a really funny episode because then they go through that door and then they're like, yeah, we made it. This is the place and there's another door that goes to the VIP people. Right. And I kind of feel like that with some products where I've gone and upgraded and paid for the product, and immediately I'm seeing upgrade buttons on screen and telling me about features that I don't have. And it feels like at some point that might be useful when I'm trying to use those features.

Omer Khan [00:43:35]:
But it's that Fraser experience where I just feel like I paid in, like this better experience. And you're telling me there's something better that you don't have. Right. It's almost like an anticlimax.

Peter Loving [00:43:45]:
Yeah. That's the thing you don't want people to feel after making a buying decision, you don't want them to feel an anticlimax. That's it. Because the message you're giving them is the thing you just bought isn't good enough because we're hitting you with the next better version of it. So when we're designing that kind of experience, it's very intentional. It's like we want to build loyalty, reinforce that that was a good buying decision, and then enable them within that plan.

Peter Loving [00:44:15]:
So it's almost like sometimes you're almost doing some activation design or some onboarding design for that plan to really make them, help them get the most out of what they just paid for. So, yeah, get the most out of the features and get using it and build that utilization and lifetime value, essentially.

Omer Khan [00:44:35]:
Yeah, yeah. It's almost like when somebody pays, you don't want them to have buyer's remorse. And you, rather than trying to do the upgrade, you almost want to reinforce that buying decision. Congratulations, you made this. You know, you made the right decision. Let's just show you all the things that you can do now. Blah, blah, blah, whatever. Right. That seems like a better experience.

Peter Loving [00:44:58]:
Yeah. Like going back to that affiliate management platform. You say the upgrade and pay. The screen we want to land them on is like, right, let's get you set up and on the way to making more money from affiliates for your SaaS. And that's a compelling message. That's what they're there for. So then they're on the journey. Okay, let's add your first. Let's set up your first campaign, add your affiliates, send the message out, and that's the kind of thing will facilitate a flow for that with the upgrade flow. It's. It's the.

Peter Loving [00:45:30]:
It's usually the bit before that that we're really working on. So it does start during onboarding because we want the user to be really clear about what the different, what the options, what the buying options are. You know, what are the plans? We want them to be easy to understand. We want them to be easy to identify which plan is for them. And we also want them to understand the, the model, the sign up, you know, an acquisition model for the SaaS.

Peter Loving [00:46:00]:
Because if they're on a free trial, we, we want to, we want to frame it. Okay, 14 days will help you get the most out of this product in this time. But you know, we do, you do see the kind of, oh, like, you know, you have 13 days left or you know, five days left, sign up, upgrade now, you know, we will design those things but they're very contextual and they're very, you know, you have to be intentional about where you put them.

Peter Loving [00:46:26]:
If, for example, you're running a freemium plan, we would do that very differently. So you might have a premium feature. When they click on that screen, you'll introduce the feature and explain what it is. You know, say, okay, get started. Now if they click on get started, we're going to show them a paywall or a sign up wall to say, okay, upgrade onto the plan to pay for this feature. And then we're going to educate them on that.

Peter Loving [00:46:55]:
The key thing about making it easy is it's a bit like that sign up where I said, you know, frictionless. We're trying to remove friction. So simplifying the decision making, simplifying the features or the complexity of what's in that plan so they understand it and can go through. So ideally we want them to have one click land on the pricing screen in app. I'm also surprised how many times I see that taking a user outside the app onto a kind of pricing screen back on the website. And for us this is like a big mistake.

Peter Loving [00:47:31]:
So we want to keep them inside the product and then go through the upgrade payment. We've seen mistakes with this as well before, which is, you know, annual plans usually have a 20% discount, something like that. We've seen some flows where you're not telling the user that they're paying for the whole annual plan, but the fee there's for the annual plan, then they pay for it and then they're like, oh shit, I've signed up for annual and now I want a refund.

Peter Loving [00:47:59]:
So it's just like highlighting the information making that buying decision logical, easy and seamless. So that, yeah, upgrade flow, we consider it, you know, from onboarding as well. It's that journey to understanding what you're buying and making it easy to buy.

Omer Khan [00:48:15]:
Yeah, I think people are getting used to it now in terms of the monthly versus annual pricing. But initially it felt a bit deceptive where, you know, you'd see the pricing page and it would say $200 a month monthly, and only $97 annual. A month.

Peter Loving [00:48:35]:
Right.

Omer Khan [00:48:36]:
And it's like, yeah, okay, it's kind of amortized over, like, you know, monthly. But then you get to the next stage and it's like, you know, give us like, you know, $10,000. Right. You're like, you know, what happened?

Peter Loving [00:48:48]:
Yeah. And you're like thinking, oh, wait, I thought it was 97. Yeah, that's it. Because it's just like giving you that. That annual cost. But what they were showing you was the equivalent monthly rate. So, yeah, there's as clever things to do and how to present it to make it look like a good investment. You know, when I know that I need a product, I always buy the annual plan because the saving is. Is pretty good.

Peter Loving [00:49:12]:
But when you're trying something and you're in a free trial and you, you validated that the product's for you, but you still don't know if you're going to really commit that being the software that you're going to use, that's when you buy. I think that's when most users will go for the monthly and they'll say, okay, I'm going to give this a month or two and just try it out. And then later on they'll get a sense of, okay, this has become a regular part of my workflow.

Peter Loving [00:49:38]:
Now it makes sense to go onto an annual plan. So you do want to account for that and be aware of things like that when you're designing upgrade flows for users. And the other example I sometimes give is Canva, where they can pay for premium assets. You know, in Canva, you might be on freemium, but you're going to pay for one thing. And it might be a premium template of a video or something like that. So there's little buying things, but once customers bought once, the likelihood of them buying again is multiplied considerably.

Peter Loving [00:50:14]:
So you know, then that you kind of have. You can build that loyalty and perhaps present plans a little more to them. So those are the kind of considerations we think about in upgrade flows.

Omer Khan [00:50:26]:
The next couple of flows, I want to get through them as quickly as possible because I want to make sure we have time for the seventh flow, which is cancellation. Right. That's. I think it's going to be super important for People. So why don't we just quickly, like number five is really like what you describe as the core product workflow and then 6 is the integration flow. So why don't you just tell us a little bit about those and any things that you think are important for our listeners.

Peter Loving [00:50:53]:
Yeah, I'll jump into that. Core product workflow is easy for me to give a general overview of this because the way I think about that is if you think about your SaaS, where do users spend most of their time and what's the most valuable feature, like if you had to pick one out? So we often think about that as the core product workflow once they've signed up and they're activated and everything else.

Peter Loving [00:51:18]:
Um, so to go back to activecampaign as the example for us, it's sending out that weekly email or sending out a marketing email to your audience so that you want to make that workflow intuitive, have a great ux, easy to do, quick to get through. If I compare this one thing, I often say that I used to find mailchimp has a very difficult UX for new users. And I know mailchimp is one of the big, you know, you know, the main players in, in that sector because they've been around a long time.

Peter Loving [00:51:52]:
But when you look at the UX for new use, and I still think the UX is, is bad, people learn it and get familiar with it and they can use mailchimp and it's very powerful and it's a great product. But when you use some of the modern tools that came into the market a lot later and they just seem like a lot more seamless, a lot more, a lot quicker and easier to flow through, like having your list and sending your email out to your audience. That's the difference.

Peter Loving [00:52:18]:
And it's that it's just delivering a great UX on your core functionality in your product.

Omer Khan [00:52:24]:
I'm surprised you say that about Mailchimp. And we keep talking about ActiveCampaign and those guys will love us because this isn't sponsored by ActiveCampaign. Right. And then now we're complaining about Mailchimp. But I do remember, like, I think there's some things about the branding with mailchimp and everything. It's like a non scary, non technical kind of experience. But whenever I've used it, I'm always not 100% clear what I'm doing, what's going to happen. And I've always felt like it's easier to make a mistake when you're doing something in mailchimp.

Omer Khan [00:53:01]:
Whereas the other ones that kind of like feel more cleaner and easier to understand.

Peter Loving [00:53:05]:
Yeah, I'm glad it's not just me. So I've heard a few other people say and that you relate to that comment as well. The touching back on the branding, I think mailchimp just has really great branding. So good software has personality. That's one thing that I say a lot.

Omer Khan [00:53:22]:
And it's actually they do a great job with that.

Peter Loving [00:53:24]:
They do a great job and, and you know, to get somebody to feel comfortable about a tech tool that might be complex, making it friendly, giving it personality, is a great way to do it. So it's a really, really nice thing to think about with design and giving users a good product experience. It's always nice when you see that happy chimp after you've sent a campaign.

Omer Khan [00:53:47]:
Yeah, great. Let's talk about integration flow and then we'll talk about the cancellation piece.

Peter Loving [00:53:53]:
Cool. Okay. So integrations are really important in software. Some products require an integration even to be used and that affiliate management software again is a good example of this. Or often CRMs can be a good example, especially if the CRM is attached to customer activity or to a payment or billing solution. Accounting and bookkeeping is another sector where you always need to do an integration with your, either your banking or something like Stripe to get your accounting information into your product.

Peter Loving [00:54:32]:
So although this is user flow number six, it can happen in onboarding for software like that. It's one of the first steps so you have high level of friction right during the onboarding process. And the job to be done there is to make that integration as easy as possible. And that can be difficult when you've got a technical integration. Some of them, we've worked with software companies who, who have integrations that are complex, that require developers to come in and actually help.

Peter Loving [00:55:00]:
So we're designing an integration flow to facilitate that, to make it easy, easy to invite your developer, easy to give them instructions and then hand it back off once they're done. So that's really important for some and for other SaaS it's just important for them to connect up to other tools in their ecosystem in their tech stack. So you want to make integrations be very prominent section in your software. You want to list them out really clearly. A lot of tools will rely on Zapier to give to help you integrate.

Peter Loving [00:55:33]:
But if you can build custom integrations where you, you know, you've connected with APIs on the tools and you've done, you've made it, you Know, one click or a nice easy flow to do it, then that's better. It's just that nowadays integrations are pretty much a requirement for most software tools to be effective for their users.

Omer Khan [00:55:56]:
Yeah, yeah. I think that's spot on and we don't have to spend too much time on this. I would just say love Zapier, but I often feel like I've got all these zaps set up and I forget about them and then something stops working and I'm not sure where to look because I even forgot that I set this thing up in the first place. And I feel like a lot of times I see this in SaaS products where they defer to Zapier to do everything and you're putting extra work on your end users.

Omer Khan [00:56:30]:
Yeah, I mean, you don't have to build native integrations and all of that stuff, but it makes it harder for users, especially if they're not technical people, versus just being able to go into your app and, and click and have the integration there. I know there are a bunch of teams that are working on products that make that easier for native integrations, but yeah, I think the takeaway here is know your users, know what they're capable of and make sure you're providing an integration experience that is appropriate for them.

Peter Loving [00:57:06]:
Yeah, yeah. Making it easy for them to connect up their tech stack as well.

Omer Khan [00:57:12]:
Great. Okay, so number seven, flow cancellation. Right. This is the one that we really can keep founders awake at night, right. Losing churn, people canceling. I don't know why people cancelled. I often say, you know, if I hear a founder say that, I'm like, okay, well, you know, put in some kind of, just quick one question survey. Right. Or one, you know, one click kind of thing. No one ever fills load out. It's just. And there's this, it's just.

Omer Khan [00:57:43]:
So I think this is, I think there'll be a lot of founders listening, saying, peter, please give me something here, right? Like, how can, how can, how can I, how can I reduce my churn like today? What could I do?

Peter Loving [00:57:54]:
Cancellation is a tricky one because by the time they get to cancellation, they probably made up their mind. So you, that's the thing. You're almost at the point of if you can retain them, that's a great result in this. But we look at it as the best thing that you can get from the cancellation flow is the learning experience. Have you ever seen a SaaS where they hide the cancellation or make it impossible for you to cancel?

Peter Loving [00:58:21]:
Yeah, so I've had that experience before and you actually have to contact them, say, I can't cancel this and I really need to. And you know, you're kind of wondering if anyone's going to get back to you. We really don't recommend that. That's a really bad experience. Once you leave, you are never coming back if you've made it difficult. So what we like to recommend is make it in, you know, intuitive.

Peter Loving [00:58:49]:
Make it, you know, you don't want to put it as a call to action to cancel, but you do want to make, put it somewhere in their subscription or account or profile settings. The option to downgrade or cancel. Now, when they, when the user goes to click on that, that's our opportunity to get the learning outcomes that we really need. So we design a flow for that. And sometimes there's a few options in there. The first one is, oh, hey, you've got a problem, you'd like to cancel.

Peter Loving [00:59:18]:
We've done this before where we've offered three options. We're like, okay, would you like to have half price for the next month or three months? It depends on what the offer could be. And there might be an opportunity during that period to also figure out, okay, you know, how do we retain this customer? The other option might be speak to customer support who can help you with this problem right now, live chat. And the third one will be, do you want to put your account on hold? Like, just pause.

Peter Loving [00:59:51]:
And then depending on what they click on, we take them on that journey. So at the end, if they just really, really want to cancel, we let them cancel. But before that, before they do that, you can provide them with some required fields. You can say, hey, what's the reason you're canceling? Sometimes we like to leave an open text field so they can really write that down.

Peter Loving [01:00:13]:
Then we can say, can you evaluate any parts of the product that you're not happy with and maybe give them like a bunch of selections so that they can check through? Because they might not write it down, but when they see it in a list, they can click on the thing or what it was. And from a design, you know, imagine your product team, the product team's perspective. That's valuable insights.

Peter Loving [01:00:37]:
That's what we're going to take some of that information, we're going to try and validate that information and then go back and build those improvements into the product. So even though you might lose this user or this customer, anyone else with that same kind of scenario, we could retrieve them and really fix that solution for them so that you prevent cancellations in the future. And there can be so many reasons. It can be even the UX can play a larger part than people often expect.

Peter Loving [01:01:12]:
Just the perceived quality of the product or trying out a lot, a lot of cases it's, you know, trying out a different product. We also want to know, okay, you know, if they're going to leave another product, we're going to ask them, oh, what product are you going to try out? So we can't kind of. You kind of want to know who you're losing your customers to as well, and that makes it easy to realize what you, what you're not doing. Right.

Peter Loving [01:01:34]:
So we see this as a learning opportunity with the possibility of returning, retrieving a potentially lost customer.

Omer Khan [01:01:41]:
Got it. Okay. Yeah. I think you and I talked briefly about this before we started recording and really you might be able to win back some customers or prevent them from canceling at this point. But as you pointed out, really at this stage, you kind of have left it too late if this is a surprise that somebody is now canceling because there are a bunch of early signals that could have given you some clues that this was a possibility.

Peter Loving [01:02:13]:
Yeah, it's like trying to retrieve them, which can be difficult if you do great, but trying to retrieve them. There is like this chicken and egg thing actually. If you learn from that one and then actually implement that into the product, you're going to retain the future customer. So rather than looking at it as the end of a customer, you're kind of looking at it as improving the beginning for other customers and how you can increase LTV and retention.

Omer Khan [01:02:45]:
Yeah, because I think the kinds of things that I've suggested to founders who've struggled with this is like, look at other signals earlier, like, what's happening with product usage? Are they using the product less and less? Was there. Are you asking for feedback when they interact with your support or if you have a support team? Was there a negative experience or something that was unresolved there? Is there some kind of billing issue going on or whatever?

Omer Khan [01:03:20]:
You know, there's a bunch of things that you could have a checklist to go through and just say, these are the things we need to keep an eye on. And if we're seeing some of these things light up, that's a potential signal or set of signals that this customer could cancel. Right. And so that's the time to save that customer or keep them around than waiting until when they're on the cancellation page. Right.

Peter Loving [01:03:44]:
I mean, all of that work comes before that customer actually comes to the product. So you have to do the product work to make sure that when they come, they have a great experience. Experience. And it's good. We, I've got one example of this just improving the product experience and how that has a bigger impact on say, conversions and retention is that we worked with one company prospect, CRM, who has a wholesale and distribution CRM, and the founder had a suspicion that the dashboard, when users first log in, is not very compelling.

Peter Loving [01:04:20]:
What they did was they just put a few stats on there, which they thought, okay, these will be useful for users. So he, he had that feeling. And I think founders, a lot of them do have this kind of gut feeling of the area or different areas that need to be improved. So we said, okay, let's redesign this dashboard. When we got started, we realized, oh, there are three different user profiles who need to do different things.

Peter Loving [01:04:44]:
So then we were like, okay, okay, we're going to design three different dashboards and whichever user profile is, we'll land them in the dashboard for them. And we massively improved the data visualization, the UX and the UI for these. And it actually had a really big impact on the conversion rate from free trial to paid. And it ended up adding like a significant amount of ARR to their, you know, business. It was like 300k in ARR because their conversion rate went from was around like 18 to 26% of free trial to paid conversions.

Peter Loving [01:05:20]:
And they were getting quite a lot of signups. So just goes to show like the, the impact product experience can make. And what I know what we want to do is help founders who are listening, but sometimes it can make it even more difficult because one of the things I was going to say is that users can't always articulate exactly what it was that's, you know, missing when they cancel. So we're wanting to understand them as much as we can and learn. But also what you said was really important.

Peter Loving [01:05:51]:
It's observing and you kind of want to infer from their activity and their behavior things that you can do to improve the product as well. So, yeah, all of those things are important.

Omer Khan [01:06:05]:
Like, I would give a simple one where if you're getting requests from customers asking for a particular feature that your competitor has and your support team is saying, sorry, we don't have that, and a few weeks later a customer is canceling. There might be a correlation there that you want to, you know, at least look into.

Peter Loving [01:06:24]:
Yeah, yeah, that's it.

Omer Khan [01:06:26]:
But I love your, the idea of like, just give them like the options in terms of you know, can we. Is there. Would a discount for short term, for the next month, three months help? Can you, you know, do you want to pause your subscription?

Peter Loving [01:06:38]:
Yeah, like, pause. We. Sometimes we've done this in the past, and if you haven't used Audible from Amazon, you'll see they do. They do this really well. If you try and cancel on Audible, they will give you an offer. They'll be like, okay, we'll give you three months, half price. And you're like, well, that's a good offer. And they'll say, or we'll give you like three credits or something like that. So they really make, you know, it's a lot. The cost of acquiring a customer is much higher than maintaining a good customer. Right.

Peter Loving [01:07:06]:
So they're working on that principle. It's like they will go to quite a big length to retain a customer. So, yeah, it's a special offer. Talk to customer support or pause the account. Those are three of the common ones that we've worked on or designed, and it works.

Omer Khan [01:07:23]:
I've been an Audible subscriber for over 10 years, and even the times where I thought about canceling, they've managed to make me reconsider.

Peter Loving [01:07:34]:
They pull you back in? Yeah. And the amount of books that I've got in there that I haven't listened to is insane. So they do a really good job on retention.

Omer Khan [01:07:44]:
Yeah. Cool. Okay, great. Look, we should wrap up. I think this was very helpful, so thank you for walking us through that and just sharing some of your experiences on the mistakes that you see and what founders and teams working on these types of flows can do to try and turn things around. If people want to learn about more what you do at Useractive, I guess they can go to Useractive IO. And if folks want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Peter Loving [01:08:18]:
Yeah, UserActive IO. It's great. You can put a book a call there. I've got to book a call link. If you book a call there, you'll speak to me directly. I put aside 15 minutes for those calls. So if you need help or you've got a product issue, you can have a chat with me. There's no obligation on sales. I'm talking to founders every day. Other than that, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, so those are probably the two best places.

Omer Khan [01:08:46]:
Great. Awesome. Thank you, Peter. It's been a pleasure and I wish you and the team the best of success. And thanks for sharing, allowing us to pick your brain and hopefully there's some nugget in there for everybody listening that they can go and apply to their SaaS business.

Peter Loving [01:09:03]:
Yeah. Really hope this is valuable for your audience. Yeah, I've loved being on it. Thanks so much for the chat. Really appreciate the opportunity to guest and share some of the stuff that we work on and the kind of user flows that we think are really valuable for SaaS companies to consider.

Omer Khan [01:09:18]:
It's my pleasure. All right, mate, all the best. Take care. Cheers.